What do the holes mean??

David · 9th August 2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

My comment above was on the Sundanese kujang, confirming DaveA's post. I read your post as if you and I were discussing the kujang, not the kudi.

Has Dave presented us with Sundanese kujangs or are these from Madura as suggested? Are all three of the weapons Dave presented best described as kujangs or would at least one of them be better described as a kudi? Would it be fair to base any hypothesis on the origin of certain features of a weapon upon a modern interpretation of that weapon or should we only be looking at kudis from the correct eras?
My sources roughly estimate the age of my kudi to be from about 1600. It has 4 holes.Whether we interpret that as 4 or 3+1 it still does not fit into the square little box of 3 or 5, Hindu or Islamic. Does anyone else out there have another old kudi that also doesn't fit the "box"?

A. G. Maisey · 9th August 2011, 01:30 PM

David, the blades that Dave has shown are fair enough representations of kudi and kujang, of course the arit-like blade does not belong, and possibly that one is not Madura, although the carving of the sheath looks pretty much like Sumenep work.I do not know of anywhere else in Indonesia that produces things that look like these other than Madura. The stuff that comes out of Bandung looks totally different.

There is a lot of variation in kudi, I haven't handled all that many kujang, but according to what is written on them, there is a lot of variation in kujang forms as well.But anyway, what we are looking at here can be taken as good representations of kudi and kujang. But that arity thing is more contemporary.

Regarding the holes, its as I said:- there are variations. I think Harsrinuksmo shows a drawing of a kudi with six holes. Yeah, sure, we could reasonably expect to see all odd numbers, but the simple fact of the matter is that we do not know what was going on with the holes. Before Mark drew my attention to the holes, I'd never much thought about them. There are many ways the numbers can be interpreted, and its no big trick to move in a different direction and interpret in ways other than the maculine identity.

One thing that Javanese culture does provide is multiple ways to interpret anything, but when there is nowhere to start no one way of interpretation can be more favoured than any other.

Hindu? Islamic? Indigenous? Who knows?

Religion? Magic? Numerology? Who knows?

The people who did actually know all died a few hundred years ago.

Jean · 9th August 2011, 06:33 PM

Just for reference, pictures of few kudi/kujang in my collection with 3 and 5 holes. I am not claiming that they date from the Pajajaran period....

Regards

A. G. Maisey · 9th August 2011, 11:51 PM

Here are a couple of archaics, both excavated, and both considerably more substantial than the talismanic ones we usually see.

David · 10th August 2011, 02:46 AM

Hey Jean, i love that last one with the head and the spiral at the base. I only count 4 holes on your second example, 3 eroded through and a 4th complete hole. Where do you count the 5th one?

Jean · 10th August 2011, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hey Jean, i love that last one with the head and the spiral at the base. I only count 4 holes on your second example, 3 eroded through and a 4th complete hole. Where do you count the 5th one?

Hey David,
You are right, the second example has only 4 holes, only the "initiated" can see the fifth one,

! I also like the 3rd one with the naga head.
Regards

9th August 2011, 06:33 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Just for reference, pictures of few kudi/kujang in my collection with 3 and 5 holes. I am not claiming that they date from the Pajajaran period.... Regards Attached Images

9th August 2011, 11:51 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Here are a couple of archaics, both excavated, and both considerably more substantial than the talismanic ones we usually see. Attached Images

9th August 2011, 01:30 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	David, the blades that Dave has shown are fair enough representations of kudi and kujang, of course the arit-like blade does not belong, and possibly that one is not Madura, although the carving of the sheath looks pretty much like Sumenep work.I do not know of anywhere else in Indonesia that produces things that look like these other than Madura. The stuff that comes out of Bandung looks totally different. There is a lot of variation in kudi, I haven't handled all that many kujang, but according to what is written on them, there is a lot of variation in kujang forms as well.But anyway, what we are looking at here can be taken as good representations of kudi and kujang. But that arity thing is more contemporary. Regarding the holes, its as I said:- there are variations. I think Harsrinuksmo shows a drawing of a kudi with six holes. Yeah, sure, we could reasonably expect to see all odd numbers, but the simple fact of the matter is that we do not know what was going on with the holes. Before Mark drew my attention to the holes, I'd never much thought about them. There are many ways the numbers can be interpreted, and its no big trick to move in a different direction and interpret in ways other than the maculine identity. One thing that Javanese culture does provide is multiple ways to interpret anything, but when there is nowhere to start no one way of interpretation can be more favoured than any other. Hindu? Islamic? Indigenous? Who knows? Religion? Magic? Numerology? Who knows? The people who did actually know all died a few hundred years ago.

10th August 2011, 02:46 AM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Hey Jean, i love that last one with the head and the spiral at the base. I only count 4 holes on your second example, 3 eroded through and a 4th complete hole. Where do you count the 5th one?