What do the holes mean??

David · 5th August 2011, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have an article on the kujang by a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat. Based on his Sundanese informants he confirms all of the explanations of DaveA's source. It also contains some other explanations of the three holes based on Sundanese cardinal virtues as well as a form of wordplay based on the name kujang. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the exact details of the other explanations until the article is published.

Hey Michael, any chance you might be able to provide us with an English translation of the article when it is published?

VANDOO · 5th August 2011, 11:38 PM

DAVID ,LOVE THE BURL WOOD ON YOUR EXAMPLE

WHEN I FIRST RAN ACROSS THESE THE UNUSUAL SHAPE AND STRANGE NAME INTRIGUED ME. THE EXAMPLES I SAW WERE OLD BUT WERE PROBABLY TAILSMANIC OBJECTS AS THE PARMOR BLADES WERE SMALL AND THIN. MY ONLY REFRENCE WAS STONES GLOSSARY AND THERE ARE PICTURES AND INFORMATION ON SEVERAL EXAMPLES ON PAGE 395 & 396 FIGURES 493 AND 494 THEY ARE REFERRED TO AS KUDI TRANCHANG AND ONE INTERESTING PICTURE IS OF A BLADE 17.5 INCHES LONG WITH SEVERAL ROUND BRASS INLAY ALONG THE SPINE OF THE BLADE. NO SCANNER SO I CAN'T ADD THE PICTURES. I ALSO WONDER WHAT THE WORD TRANCHANG MEANS, SOME STRANGE EXAMPLES ON ONE PLATE WERE IDENTIFED AS A CARPENTERS TOOL.

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2011, 12:06 AM

Dave, your kudis were produced in Madura.
I have better than 40 years experience of Solo and keris dealing in Solo in particular, and in Jawa in general. These kudis and kujangs came from Madura, they are not the product of any Solo based maker. It would interest me to know exactly what village your supplier is helping to support.

David, I endorse your remarks completely.

Any information is only as good as its source, and in respect of kudis and kujangs, the possible sources of reliable information are dead several hundred years ago. Whatever stories pass for current "knowledge" are invention.

Would you like another little bit of hypothesis?

At the time when the kudi was in actual use as a weapon armies and individual warriors were much given to personal and weapon adornment. In the armies of Majapahit banners were listed as weapons.

It is possible that the holes were provided to permit ribbons to be tied to the weapon, both as adornment, and to confuse the eye of the opponent. As characteristics of weapons should always be male in nature, the number of holes needs to be a male number, which means an odd number, where an even number occurs it must be considered as two odd numbers.

As for the kujang, its unusual form with the hooked base is not the product of an attempt to create an Arabic letter, rather it is pragmatic weapon design which incorporates a body stop , preventing the blade from deep penetration, and thus creating difficulty in extraction.

The above is pure hypothesis. Given time and sufficient interest I could support these ideas with volumes of academic evidence and I would probably be able to get a great many people to believe them, but it is only the product of a spare five minutes and a deep understanding of Javanese culture and history.

Hypothesis may be entertaining, but it is as well to treat it as entertainment, nothing more.

DaveA · 7th August 2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Dave, your kudis were produced in Madura.
I have better than 40 years experience of Solo and keris dealing in Solo in particular, and in Jawa in general. These kudis and kujangs came from Madura, they are not the product of any Solo based maker. It would interest me to know exactly what village your supplier is helping to support.

Thanks. Good info. Now I know who to ask about such things! Unfortunately, I lost contact with that dealer about four years ago.

- Dave A.

A. G. Maisey · 9th August 2011, 12:03 AM

I apologise for causing you such confusion Michael.

I sometimes forget that people are coming from a base which differs from my own, and do not have the same resources upon which to draw, I sometimes write or say something assuming that the things which are obvious to me will also be obvious to them, so I leave out steps in the thinking process, and not infrequently, I achieve nothing other than to confuse them, as I have obviously done with you.

I'm sorry.

I'll try again.

The societal organisation in pre-Islamic times in much of what is now Indonesia was very similar. Especially across the Islands of Jawa, Bali and Madura there was a sameness to society and culture that made these areas almost able to be viewed as a single societal and cultural unit. The societal components were organised in a similar way, and the fabric of the underlaying culture for all of this area was very similar.

Similar methods of agriculture were used, which only varied dependent upon the applicable climate and conditions, and similar tools were used to carry on that agriculture, however, these tools had local variations and sometimes the names also differed. For instance the arit --- a reaping hook or sickle --- is virtually universal, but in some areas it has developed a weapon form, and has a different name, as in Madura, where it is known as a celurit and is recognised as the characteristic Madurese weapon.

Now let us direct our attention to the progression of this thread.

Mark asked a question that relates to the kudi.

The kudi is a Javanese implement that even in pre-Mataram Jawa had a tool form and a weapon form. In its tool form it still exists in Jawa today. If one has seen a kudi being used to cut grass the unusual form is easily understood, as the protrusion near the handle acts as a stop for the grass that is being cut, and helps to gather it into a bundle prior to being cut.

When the kudi became a weapon, it was given a point, to make it useable as a thrust weapon , as well as a cut weapon.

There are a number of kudi forms, there is the tool form, the weapon form, a talismanic form, and the kujang.

Lexicographers regard the word "kujang" as a regional variation of the word "kudi". In Sunda the kujang has acquired cultural connotations that the kudi does not have in Jawa.

From this we can understand that inclusion of the kujang in a discussion of an ancient form of the kudi is irrelevant, however, a discussion of the kujang should include discussion of the kudi, as the kujang descended from the kudi.

Since we are discussing the kudi, and not the kujang, we need to direct our attention to Javanese culture rather than Sundanese culture.

Mark's question concerned one of the characteristics of an implement which exists in Javanese culture and society, specifically the holes that are almost invariably found in the talismanic form of the kudi, and that may sometimes be found in the weapon form of the kudi.

Tradition has it that the talismanic form of the kudi has existed for a very long time, certainly back into the Hindu era of Jawa. This is where our knowledge stops and myth, legend, popular belief and academic hypothesis takes over.

It is tempting to hypothesise that the three holes represent the Hindu trinity, however, even if there is an association, it more probable that the holes were created to receive something that represented the trinity.

It can be fun to play with ideas, especially when we do not know sufficient about the subject to be discouraged by improbabilities and contradictions. This is why I stayed out of this thread when it began:- I do not know sufficient to be able to provide the answer that Mark was seeking.

VVV · 9th August 2011, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

[snip]
Lexicographers regard the word "kujang" as a regional variation of the word "kudi". In Sunda the kujang has acquired cultural connotations that the kudi does not have in Jawa.

From this we can understand that inclusion of the kujang in a discussion of an ancient form of the kudi is irrelevant, however, a discussion of the kujang should include discussion of the kudi, as the kujang descended from the kudi.

Since we are discussing the kudi, and not the kujang, we need to direct our attention to Javanese culture rather than Sundanese culture. [snip]

My comment above was on the Sundanese kujang, confirming DaveA's post. I read your post as if you and I were discussing the kujang, not the kudi. Another reason for this impression was probably this sentence of yours:

"Now, amongst the circle of people in Jawa with whom I associate, I have never heard these beliefs concerning kudi and kujang spoken."

But if your answers still mentally focused on the kudi and "Jawanese" culture, and the mentioning of kujang above should be neglected and you consider the inclusion of it as irrelevant to this thread, it does clear some of the confusion. So does the quoted second sentence above were you confirm my remark 1) in my earlier post.

However, even if your answer cleared some confusion it woke my curiosity on this hypothesis of yours:

"It is tempting to hypothesise that the three holes represent the Hindu trinity, however, even if there is an association, it more probable that the holes were created to receive something that represented the trinity."

Could you please develop this?

A. G. Maisey · 9th August 2011, 11:23 AM

Yes Michael I was focussed on the kudi, because that was where Mark's question was directed, I included mention of the kujang in what I wrote because Dave's informant had given the myth as including the kujang and kudi.

However, I'm glad that I have been able to clarify my position.

As to the three holes hypothesis, its a throw away idea. We can come up a multitude of "good ideas" when we start this sort of game, I threw in the Hindu trinity simply because it fits the scenario of three + Hindu Jawa. Three is a very important number in Hindu Javanese belief, because of the trinity, and important in present day Bali Hindu belief for the same reason. Many examples can be found. However, when we involve the three in a physical form it would be usual to involve a representation of their attributes, perhaps in the applicable colours.My attitude could be misdirected in this instance, but I personally find this sort of hypothesing pretty much a waste of time. The sort of thing you do with friends of like mind when the level in the bottle of muscat is getting near to the bottom. With only a minimal understanding of Old Javanese culture, and current Javanese culture, it is possible come up with all sorts of good ideas --- and that's all this sort of thing is:- a good idea. Without the evidence its not worth wasting time on, and currently we do not have the evidence.

In any case, the holes are not limited to three, David showed us four, which because of placement of the holes and the place of even and uneven numbers in Javanese numerological belief, I feel inclined to interpret as three + one. There are other examples of five or more holes. We can interpret in all sorts of ways and continue to do so until the cows come home.

David · 9th August 2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

My comment above was on the Sundanese kujang, confirming DaveA's post. I read your post as if you and I were discussing the kujang, not the kudi.

Has Dave presented us with Sundanese kujangs or are these from Madura as suggested? Are all three of the weapons Dave presented best described as kujangs or would at least one of them be better described as a kudi? Would it be fair to base any hypothesis on the origin of certain features of a weapon upon a modern interpretation of that weapon or should we only be looking at kudis from the correct eras?
My sources roughly estimate the age of my kudi to be from about 1600. It has 4 holes.Whether we interpret that as 4 or 3+1 it still does not fit into the square little box of 3 or 5, Hindu or Islamic. Does anyone else out there have another old kudi that also doesn't fit the "box"?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 7th October 2016, 10:33 PM

The hand of Fatima is Talismanic as is the figure 5 and the geometric association of it (including dots). It stands for the 5 tennets of Islam thus Fatima being the daughter of the Prophet carries the very significant charm in depictions of her hand particularly in the Magreb region. The figure 3 (including dots) is seen on sword blades hilts and scabbards and is often reflected by the Trio in Juncta displayed by The Fleur De Lys. It is commonly used illustrating the Tri Murti; Islam, Christianity and Judaiism...and can be found in Indian weapons etc. The three tribes of the book form a powerful illustration. In addition there is the figure 1. (or single dot) Centre of the Universe . Many numbers have peculiar meanings and magic squares made up of mathematical sequences of numbers can be found across the entire spectrum of ethnographic weapons East and West... see one example below..
To illustrate the fact I place jewellery showing figure 5 and "Hand" variants of what I am writing about. Dots on blades appear to protect the owner from all sorts of danger not least from the other person attacking with his sword...Sometimes with a single dot at the tip and occasionally with 3 dots which can appear at the throat, on the hilt or somewhere else on the blade.

VVV · 6th August 2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hey Michael, any chance you might be able to provide us with an English translation of the article when it is published?

Sure, I will give it a try.

kronckew · 6th August 2011, 09:30 AM

the 4 holer could have once been a fiver that lost a hole after washing, corrosion, reshaping, etc.

David · 6th August 2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the 4 holer could have once been a fiver that lost a hole after washing, corrosion, reshaping, etc.

That seems somewhat doubtful. The integrity of my old kudi is pretty good and i doubt there has been much reshaping. I believe this kudi always had 4 (or 3+1 ) holes.

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2011, 09:00 PM

Yes, interesting Michael, perhaps this anthropologist's work extends to a dating of the rise of silat in Sunda, and a date of the decline of the kingdoms in Sunda which used the kujang as a weapon?

Then perhaps we may also be able to consider cultural distribution and use of the kudi as a weapon, and possibly the variation in mounting --- the kudi as a hand weapon, the kujang as a pole weapon.

I have not the slightest doubt that Dave's informants story can be found to be an article of faith amongst present day believers in Indonesian weapons mythology. None at all. My problem is that I have a very great deal of difficulty in accepting belief as fact, when logic and fact based knowledge does not support that belief.

Anthropologists study the beliefs of man, they do not vouch for the factual basis of those beliefs.

VVV · 6th August 2011, 10:29 PM

Alan,

Of course anthropologists study present human beliefs, which is what all science is about.
Maybe I misunderstood you but do you seriously want to claim that there exist scientific eternal facts (not based on human beliefs) outside the part of Mathematics that is based on axioms (logical human beliefs that "everybody" agrees on that they do not need to be proven)?

A. G. Maisey · 7th August 2011, 07:56 AM

Michael, forgive me if I am incorrect in this peculiar little understanding of mine, but I do not think that in this matter of the "holes in a kudi" we are dealing with any area of science, rather I am of the opinion that we are dealing with belief systems.

Now, Dave has very kindly provided us a recital of some of those beliefs, which in turn were provided to him by a dealer in Central Jawa.

You have advised us that the writings of a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat can provide verification that the beliefs held by Dave's dealer are the same or similar to the beliefs held by some practitioners of silat living in Sunda.

So far, so good. Who can possibly argue with any of this?

Not me, and that is certain.

However, this is verification of a current belief, it is not something that can be accepted as fact, based upon evidence, and the belief itself holds no logical argument.

What we have is a belief that can probably be demonstrated to be of reasonably recent origin.This belief is attached to an artifact --- actually two quite different and distinct artifacts --- that ceased to be used perhaps 500 years ago.

Now, amongst the circle of people in Jawa with whom I associate, I have never heard these beliefs concerning kudi and kujang spoken. These are mostly older people, probably the youngest would be 55, and none have even the smallest interest in silat, but most are orientated towards Kejawen philosophy.

Bambang Harsrinuksmo was a writer of copious text. I doubt that he ever missed an opportunity to extend two words into twenty words; he was not hesitant at all to recount the esoteric beliefs associated with items of tosan aji. However, it would appear that when Harsrinuksmo was researching his encyclopedia of Indonesian tosan aji, he did not encounter this belief that Dave's dealer and some silat practitioners hold. I cannot help but wonder why.

The beliefs associated with Javanese and other weaponry are certainly interesting, in some cases, entertaining, but it is a regretable fact that a great many of the beliefs associated with Javanese tosan aji cannot be shown to be of an origin that begins more than a couple of hundred years ago, in other words, in terms of Javanese culture, they are recent beliefs, and very few of those beliefs have any foundation in evidence or in logical argument.

Once again, I do not have any problem with this, provided that we recognise that we are dealing with an artifact of a system of belief, rather than something which has some claim to be fact.

7th October 2016, 10:33 PM	#9
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The hand of Fatima is Talismanic as is the figure 5 and the geometric association of it (including dots). It stands for the 5 tennets of Islam thus Fatima being the daughter of the Prophet carries the very significant charm in depictions of her hand particularly in the Magreb region. The figure 3 (including dots) is seen on sword blades hilts and scabbards and is often reflected by the Trio in Juncta displayed by The Fleur De Lys. It is commonly used illustrating the Tri Murti; Islam, Christianity and Judaiism...and can be found in Indian weapons etc. The three tribes of the book form a powerful illustration. In addition there is the figure 1. (or single dot) Centre of the Universe . Many numbers have peculiar meanings and magic squares made up of mathematical sequences of numbers can be found across the entire spectrum of ethnographic weapons East and West... see one example below.. To illustrate the fact I place jewellery showing figure 5 and "Hand" variants of what I am writing about. Dots on blades appear to protect the owner from all sorts of danger not least from the other person attacking with his sword...Sometimes with a single dot at the tip and occasionally with 3 dots which can appear at the throat, on the hilt or somewhere else on the blade. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 7th October 2016 at 11:08 PM.

5th August 2011, 11:38 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	DAVID ,LOVE THE BURL WOOD ON YOUR EXAMPLE WHEN I FIRST RAN ACROSS THESE THE UNUSUAL SHAPE AND STRANGE NAME INTRIGUED ME. THE EXAMPLES I SAW WERE OLD BUT WERE PROBABLY TAILSMANIC OBJECTS AS THE PARMOR BLADES WERE SMALL AND THIN. MY ONLY REFRENCE WAS STONES GLOSSARY AND THERE ARE PICTURES AND INFORMATION ON SEVERAL EXAMPLES ON PAGE 395 & 396 FIGURES 493 AND 494 THEY ARE REFERRED TO AS KUDI TRANCHANG AND ONE INTERESTING PICTURE IS OF A BLADE 17.5 INCHES LONG WITH SEVERAL ROUND BRASS INLAY ALONG THE SPINE OF THE BLADE. NO SCANNER SO I CAN'T ADD THE PICTURES. I ALSO WONDER WHAT THE WORD TRANCHANG MEANS, SOME STRANGE EXAMPLES ON ONE PLATE WERE IDENTIFED AS A CARPENTERS TOOL.

6th August 2011, 12:06 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Dave, your kudis were produced in Madura. I have better than 40 years experience of Solo and keris dealing in Solo in particular, and in Jawa in general. These kudis and kujangs came from Madura, they are not the product of any Solo based maker. It would interest me to know exactly what village your supplier is helping to support. David, I endorse your remarks completely. Any information is only as good as its source, and in respect of kudis and kujangs, the possible sources of reliable information are dead several hundred years ago. Whatever stories pass for current "knowledge" are invention. Would you like another little bit of hypothesis? At the time when the kudi was in actual use as a weapon armies and individual warriors were much given to personal and weapon adornment. In the armies of Majapahit banners were listed as weapons. It is possible that the holes were provided to permit ribbons to be tied to the weapon, both as adornment, and to confuse the eye of the opponent. As characteristics of weapons should always be male in nature, the number of holes needs to be a male number, which means an odd number, where an even number occurs it must be considered as two odd numbers. As for the kujang, its unusual form with the hooked base is not the product of an attempt to create an Arabic letter, rather it is pragmatic weapon design which incorporates a body stop , preventing the blade from deep penetration, and thus creating difficulty in extraction. The above is pure hypothesis. Given time and sufficient interest I could support these ideas with volumes of academic evidence and I would probably be able to get a great many people to believe them, but it is only the product of a spare five minutes and a deep understanding of Javanese culture and history. Hypothesis may be entertaining, but it is as well to treat it as entertainment, nothing more.

9th August 2011, 12:03 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	I apologise for causing you such confusion Michael. I sometimes forget that people are coming from a base which differs from my own, and do not have the same resources upon which to draw, I sometimes write or say something assuming that the things which are obvious to me will also be obvious to them, so I leave out steps in the thinking process, and not infrequently, I achieve nothing other than to confuse them, as I have obviously done with you. I'm sorry. I'll try again. The societal organisation in pre-Islamic times in much of what is now Indonesia was very similar. Especially across the Islands of Jawa, Bali and Madura there was a sameness to society and culture that made these areas almost able to be viewed as a single societal and cultural unit. The societal components were organised in a similar way, and the fabric of the underlaying culture for all of this area was very similar. Similar methods of agriculture were used, which only varied dependent upon the applicable climate and conditions, and similar tools were used to carry on that agriculture, however, these tools had local variations and sometimes the names also differed. For instance the arit --- a reaping hook or sickle --- is virtually universal, but in some areas it has developed a weapon form, and has a different name, as in Madura, where it is known as a celurit and is recognised as the characteristic Madurese weapon. Now let us direct our attention to the progression of this thread. Mark asked a question that relates to the kudi. The kudi is a Javanese implement that even in pre-Mataram Jawa had a tool form and a weapon form. In its tool form it still exists in Jawa today. If one has seen a kudi being used to cut grass the unusual form is easily understood, as the protrusion near the handle acts as a stop for the grass that is being cut, and helps to gather it into a bundle prior to being cut. When the kudi became a weapon, it was given a point, to make it useable as a thrust weapon , as well as a cut weapon. There are a number of kudi forms, there is the tool form, the weapon form, a talismanic form, and the kujang. Lexicographers regard the word "kujang" as a regional variation of the word "kudi". In Sunda the kujang has acquired cultural connotations that the kudi does not have in Jawa. From this we can understand that inclusion of the kujang in a discussion of an ancient form of the kudi is irrelevant, however, a discussion of the kujang should include discussion of the kudi, as the kujang descended from the kudi. Since we are discussing the kudi, and not the kujang, we need to direct our attention to Javanese culture rather than Sundanese culture. Mark's question concerned one of the characteristics of an implement which exists in Javanese culture and society, specifically the holes that are almost invariably found in the talismanic form of the kudi, and that may sometimes be found in the weapon form of the kudi. Tradition has it that the talismanic form of the kudi has existed for a very long time, certainly back into the Hindu era of Jawa. This is where our knowledge stops and myth, legend, popular belief and academic hypothesis takes over. It is tempting to hypothesise that the three holes represent the Hindu trinity, however, even if there is an association, it more probable that the holes were created to receive something that represented the trinity. It can be fun to play with ideas, especially when we do not know sufficient about the subject to be discouraged by improbabilities and contradictions. This is why I stayed out of this thread when it began:- I do not know sufficient to be able to provide the answer that Mark was seeking.

9th August 2011, 11:23 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes Michael I was focussed on the kudi, because that was where Mark's question was directed, I included mention of the kujang in what I wrote because Dave's informant had given the myth as including the kujang and kudi. However, I'm glad that I have been able to clarify my position. As to the three holes hypothesis, its a throw away idea. We can come up a multitude of "good ideas" when we start this sort of game, I threw in the Hindu trinity simply because it fits the scenario of three + Hindu Jawa. Three is a very important number in Hindu Javanese belief, because of the trinity, and important in present day Bali Hindu belief for the same reason. Many examples can be found. However, when we involve the three in a physical form it would be usual to involve a representation of their attributes, perhaps in the applicable colours.My attitude could be misdirected in this instance, but I personally find this sort of hypothesing pretty much a waste of time. The sort of thing you do with friends of like mind when the level in the bottle of muscat is getting near to the bottom. With only a minimal understanding of Old Javanese culture, and current Javanese culture, it is possible come up with all sorts of good ideas --- and that's all this sort of thing is:- a good idea. Without the evidence its not worth wasting time on, and currently we do not have the evidence. In any case, the holes are not limited to three, David showed us four, which because of placement of the holes and the place of even and uneven numbers in Javanese numerological belief, I feel inclined to interpret as three + one. There are other examples of five or more holes. We can interpret in all sorts of ways and continue to do so until the cows come home.

6th August 2011, 09:30 AM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,239	the 4 holer could have once been a fiver that lost a hole after washing, corrosion, reshaping, etc.

6th August 2011, 09:00 PM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Yes, interesting Michael, perhaps this anthropologist's work extends to a dating of the rise of silat in Sunda, and a date of the decline of the kingdoms in Sunda which used the kujang as a weapon? Then perhaps we may also be able to consider cultural distribution and use of the kudi as a weapon, and possibly the variation in mounting --- the kudi as a hand weapon, the kujang as a pole weapon. I have not the slightest doubt that Dave's informants story can be found to be an article of faith amongst present day believers in Indonesian weapons mythology. None at all. My problem is that I have a very great deal of difficulty in accepting belief as fact, when logic and fact based knowledge does not support that belief. Anthropologists study the beliefs of man, they do not vouch for the factual basis of those beliefs.

6th August 2011, 10:29 PM	#14
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alan, Of course anthropologists study present human beliefs, which is what all science is about. Maybe I misunderstood you but do you seriously want to claim that there exist scientific eternal facts (not based on human beliefs) outside the part of Mathematics that is based on axioms (logical human beliefs that "everybody" agrees on that they do not need to be proven)?

7th August 2011, 07:56 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Michael, forgive me if I am incorrect in this peculiar little understanding of mine, but I do not think that in this matter of the "holes in a kudi" we are dealing with any area of science, rather I am of the opinion that we are dealing with belief systems. Now, Dave has very kindly provided us a recital of some of those beliefs, which in turn were provided to him by a dealer in Central Jawa. You have advised us that the writings of a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat can provide verification that the beliefs held by Dave's dealer are the same or similar to the beliefs held by some practitioners of silat living in Sunda. So far, so good. Who can possibly argue with any of this? Not me, and that is certain. However, this is verification of a current belief, it is not something that can be accepted as fact, based upon evidence, and the belief itself holds no logical argument. What we have is a belief that can probably be demonstrated to be of reasonably recent origin.This belief is attached to an artifact --- actually two quite different and distinct artifacts --- that ceased to be used perhaps 500 years ago. Now, amongst the circle of people in Jawa with whom I associate, I have never heard these beliefs concerning kudi and kujang spoken. These are mostly older people, probably the youngest would be 55, and none have even the smallest interest in silat, but most are orientated towards Kejawen philosophy. Bambang Harsrinuksmo was a writer of copious text. I doubt that he ever missed an opportunity to extend two words into twenty words; he was not hesitant at all to recount the esoteric beliefs associated with items of tosan aji. However, it would appear that when Harsrinuksmo was researching his encyclopedia of Indonesian tosan aji, he did not encounter this belief that Dave's dealer and some silat practitioners hold. I cannot help but wonder why. The beliefs associated with Javanese and other weaponry are certainly interesting, in some cases, entertaining, but it is a regretable fact that a great many of the beliefs associated with Javanese tosan aji cannot be shown to be of an origin that begins more than a couple of hundred years ago, in other words, in terms of Javanese culture, they are recent beliefs, and very few of those beliefs have any foundation in evidence or in logical argument. Once again, I do not have any problem with this, provided that we recognise that we are dealing with an artifact of a system of belief, rather than something which has some claim to be fact.