What do the holes mean??

David · 5th August 2011, 07:26 PM

Dave, i don't think that i or anyone here would question the value of selling contemporary examples of weapons and keeping alive the artisanship of creating these wonderful cultural weapons. But when we speak of traditional Javanese culture we must question which of those traditions we are talking about. Over the centuries the traditions have changed and the past has been somewhat "re-invented" numerous times. So which part of Javanese culture is she trying to preserve? It's pre-Hindu animistic traditions, it's Hindu influenced traditions, It's Islamic traditions or perhaps the relatively recent revival of Kejawen tradition? Add to this that the kudi is a Sundanese weapon which is not technically part of Javanese culture to begin with. So i am not implying that this woman is lying to you to make a sale, but she may well be relating information to you which is colored by her own specific belief system(s).
"It shouldn't necessarily disqualify other parts of her story that may be more grounded in fact (and easier to verify)"
I am curious exactly which part of her explanation you find to be "easier to verify".

Rick · 5th August 2011, 07:33 PM

I love (and buy) good contemporary work .

VVV · 5th August 2011, 08:58 PM

I have an article on the kujang by a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat. Based on his Sundanese informants he confirms all of the explanations of DaveA's source. It also contains some other explanations of the three holes based on Sundanese cardinal virtues as well as a form of wordplay based on the name kujang. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the exact details of the other explanations until the article is published.

David · 5th August 2011, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have an article on the kujang by a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat. Based on his Sundanese informants he confirms all of the explanations of DaveA's source. It also contains some other explanations of the three holes based on Sundanese cardinal virtues as well as a form of wordplay based on the name kujang. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the exact details of the other explanations until the article is published.

Hey Michael, any chance you might be able to provide us with an English translation of the article when it is published?

VANDOO · 5th August 2011, 11:38 PM

DAVID ,LOVE THE BURL WOOD ON YOUR EXAMPLE

WHEN I FIRST RAN ACROSS THESE THE UNUSUAL SHAPE AND STRANGE NAME INTRIGUED ME. THE EXAMPLES I SAW WERE OLD BUT WERE PROBABLY TAILSMANIC OBJECTS AS THE PARMOR BLADES WERE SMALL AND THIN. MY ONLY REFRENCE WAS STONES GLOSSARY AND THERE ARE PICTURES AND INFORMATION ON SEVERAL EXAMPLES ON PAGE 395 & 396 FIGURES 493 AND 494 THEY ARE REFERRED TO AS KUDI TRANCHANG AND ONE INTERESTING PICTURE IS OF A BLADE 17.5 INCHES LONG WITH SEVERAL ROUND BRASS INLAY ALONG THE SPINE OF THE BLADE. NO SCANNER SO I CAN'T ADD THE PICTURES. I ALSO WONDER WHAT THE WORD TRANCHANG MEANS, SOME STRANGE EXAMPLES ON ONE PLATE WERE IDENTIFED AS A CARPENTERS TOOL.

A. G. Maisey · 6th August 2011, 12:06 AM

Dave, your kudis were produced in Madura.
I have better than 40 years experience of Solo and keris dealing in Solo in particular, and in Jawa in general. These kudis and kujangs came from Madura, they are not the product of any Solo based maker. It would interest me to know exactly what village your supplier is helping to support.

David, I endorse your remarks completely.

Any information is only as good as its source, and in respect of kudis and kujangs, the possible sources of reliable information are dead several hundred years ago. Whatever stories pass for current "knowledge" are invention.

Would you like another little bit of hypothesis?

At the time when the kudi was in actual use as a weapon armies and individual warriors were much given to personal and weapon adornment. In the armies of Majapahit banners were listed as weapons.

It is possible that the holes were provided to permit ribbons to be tied to the weapon, both as adornment, and to confuse the eye of the opponent. As characteristics of weapons should always be male in nature, the number of holes needs to be a male number, which means an odd number, where an even number occurs it must be considered as two odd numbers.

As for the kujang, its unusual form with the hooked base is not the product of an attempt to create an Arabic letter, rather it is pragmatic weapon design which incorporates a body stop , preventing the blade from deep penetration, and thus creating difficulty in extraction.

The above is pure hypothesis. Given time and sufficient interest I could support these ideas with volumes of academic evidence and I would probably be able to get a great many people to believe them, but it is only the product of a spare five minutes and a deep understanding of Javanese culture and history.

Hypothesis may be entertaining, but it is as well to treat it as entertainment, nothing more.

DaveA · 7th August 2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Dave, your kudis were produced in Madura.
I have better than 40 years experience of Solo and keris dealing in Solo in particular, and in Jawa in general. These kudis and kujangs came from Madura, they are not the product of any Solo based maker. It would interest me to know exactly what village your supplier is helping to support.

Thanks. Good info. Now I know who to ask about such things! Unfortunately, I lost contact with that dealer about four years ago.

- Dave A.

VVV · 6th August 2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hey Michael, any chance you might be able to provide us with an English translation of the article when it is published?

Sure, I will give it a try.

kronckew · 6th August 2011, 09:30 AM

the 4 holer could have once been a fiver that lost a hole after washing, corrosion, reshaping, etc.

David · 6th August 2011, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the 4 holer could have once been a fiver that lost a hole after washing, corrosion, reshaping, etc.

That seems somewhat doubtful. The integrity of my old kudi is pretty good and i doubt there has been much reshaping. I believe this kudi always had 4 (or 3+1 ) holes.

Sajen · 25th January 2021, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have an article on the kujang by a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat. Based on his Sundanese informants he confirms all of the explanations of DaveA's source. It also contains some other explanations of the three holes based on Sundanese cardinal virtues as well as a form of wordplay based on the name kujang. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the exact details of the other explanations until the article is published.

Sadly Michael doesn't post anymore but maybe lurking time by time and can give an answer!

5th August 2011, 07:26 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Dave, i don't think that i or anyone here would question the value of selling contemporary examples of weapons and keeping alive the artisanship of creating these wonderful cultural weapons. But when we speak of traditional Javanese culture we must question which of those traditions we are talking about. Over the centuries the traditions have changed and the past has been somewhat "re-invented" numerous times. So which part of Javanese culture is she trying to preserve? It's pre-Hindu animistic traditions, it's Hindu influenced traditions, It's Islamic traditions or perhaps the relatively recent revival of Kejawen tradition? Add to this that the kudi is a Sundanese weapon which is not technically part of Javanese culture to begin with. So i am not implying that this woman is lying to you to make a sale, but she may well be relating information to you which is colored by her own specific belief system(s). "It shouldn't necessarily disqualify other parts of her story that may be more grounded in fact (and easier to verify)" I am curious exactly which part of her explanation you find to be "easier to verify".

5th August 2011, 07:33 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I love (and buy) good contemporary work .

5th August 2011, 08:58 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I have an article on the kujang by a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat. Based on his Sundanese informants he confirms all of the explanations of DaveA's source. It also contains some other explanations of the three holes based on Sundanese cardinal virtues as well as a form of wordplay based on the name kujang. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the exact details of the other explanations until the article is published.

5th August 2011, 11:38 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	DAVID ,LOVE THE BURL WOOD ON YOUR EXAMPLE WHEN I FIRST RAN ACROSS THESE THE UNUSUAL SHAPE AND STRANGE NAME INTRIGUED ME. THE EXAMPLES I SAW WERE OLD BUT WERE PROBABLY TAILSMANIC OBJECTS AS THE PARMOR BLADES WERE SMALL AND THIN. MY ONLY REFRENCE WAS STONES GLOSSARY AND THERE ARE PICTURES AND INFORMATION ON SEVERAL EXAMPLES ON PAGE 395 & 396 FIGURES 493 AND 494 THEY ARE REFERRED TO AS KUDI TRANCHANG AND ONE INTERESTING PICTURE IS OF A BLADE 17.5 INCHES LONG WITH SEVERAL ROUND BRASS INLAY ALONG THE SPINE OF THE BLADE. NO SCANNER SO I CAN'T ADD THE PICTURES. I ALSO WONDER WHAT THE WORD TRANCHANG MEANS, SOME STRANGE EXAMPLES ON ONE PLATE WERE IDENTIFED AS A CARPENTERS TOOL.

6th August 2011, 12:06 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Dave, your kudis were produced in Madura. I have better than 40 years experience of Solo and keris dealing in Solo in particular, and in Jawa in general. These kudis and kujangs came from Madura, they are not the product of any Solo based maker. It would interest me to know exactly what village your supplier is helping to support. David, I endorse your remarks completely. Any information is only as good as its source, and in respect of kudis and kujangs, the possible sources of reliable information are dead several hundred years ago. Whatever stories pass for current "knowledge" are invention. Would you like another little bit of hypothesis? At the time when the kudi was in actual use as a weapon armies and individual warriors were much given to personal and weapon adornment. In the armies of Majapahit banners were listed as weapons. It is possible that the holes were provided to permit ribbons to be tied to the weapon, both as adornment, and to confuse the eye of the opponent. As characteristics of weapons should always be male in nature, the number of holes needs to be a male number, which means an odd number, where an even number occurs it must be considered as two odd numbers. As for the kujang, its unusual form with the hooked base is not the product of an attempt to create an Arabic letter, rather it is pragmatic weapon design which incorporates a body stop , preventing the blade from deep penetration, and thus creating difficulty in extraction. The above is pure hypothesis. Given time and sufficient interest I could support these ideas with volumes of academic evidence and I would probably be able to get a great many people to believe them, but it is only the product of a spare five minutes and a deep understanding of Javanese culture and history. Hypothesis may be entertaining, but it is as well to treat it as entertainment, nothing more.

6th August 2011, 09:30 AM	#9
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	the 4 holer could have once been a fiver that lost a hole after washing, corrosion, reshaping, etc.