What do the holes mean??

Rick · 5th August 2011, 04:05 PM

The Seller lost me at this point :

" Nowadays, the kujang is often decorated in homes as it is believed to bring about luck, protection, honor, etc. They are displayed in pairs on walls with the inner edge facing each other. There is a taboo, however--no one is to be photographed standing in-between them as this would somehow cause the death of that person within a year. I have been assured by a senior practitioner of Kejawen the truth of this, as he had witnessed this himself. Why this occurs is not known for certain, we might shrug it off as superstition, coincidence or synchronicity but behind every phenomenon cosmic laws and intelligences are at work; we just need to discover what those laws are and the mind-set of those metaphysical intelligences directing those laws to know the reason for the anomaly. "

Pass the salt please .

DaveA · 5th August 2011, 06:50 PM

I absolutely agree that a grain of salt (at least) is warranted. The dealer is a native of Solo, Java and deeply embedded in the culture. Melia is actually an accountant and is very motivated to preserve traditional Java culture and the artisanship such as crafting of the weapons we admire so much. By selling contemporary works, she helps keep the village industries alive. So while she definitely wants to sell, she also wants to get the story right. Her magical thinking is not uncommon -- it is part of the culture she wishes to preserve. It shouldn't necessarily disqualify other parts of her story that may be more grounded in fact (and easier to verify). I'm not a historian or ethnographer but as a scientist I am a true believer in evidence. All of these stories are interesting, but when considering them as reliable data our confidence must be tempered by great uncertainty until there there is more corroborating evidence. All theories are contingent.

David · 5th August 2011, 07:26 PM

Dave, i don't think that i or anyone here would question the value of selling contemporary examples of weapons and keeping alive the artisanship of creating these wonderful cultural weapons. But when we speak of traditional Javanese culture we must question which of those traditions we are talking about. Over the centuries the traditions have changed and the past has been somewhat "re-invented" numerous times. So which part of Javanese culture is she trying to preserve? It's pre-Hindu animistic traditions, it's Hindu influenced traditions, It's Islamic traditions or perhaps the relatively recent revival of Kejawen tradition? Add to this that the kudi is a Sundanese weapon which is not technically part of Javanese culture to begin with. So i am not implying that this woman is lying to you to make a sale, but she may well be relating information to you which is colored by her own specific belief system(s).
"It shouldn't necessarily disqualify other parts of her story that may be more grounded in fact (and easier to verify)"
I am curious exactly which part of her explanation you find to be "easier to verify".

Rick · 5th August 2011, 07:33 PM

I love (and buy) good contemporary work .

VVV · 5th August 2011, 08:58 PM

I have an article on the kujang by a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat. Based on his Sundanese informants he confirms all of the explanations of DaveA's source. It also contains some other explanations of the three holes based on Sundanese cardinal virtues as well as a form of wordplay based on the name kujang. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the exact details of the other explanations until the article is published.

David · 5th August 2011, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have an article on the kujang by a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat. Based on his Sundanese informants he confirms all of the explanations of DaveA's source. It also contains some other explanations of the three holes based on Sundanese cardinal virtues as well as a form of wordplay based on the name kujang. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the exact details of the other explanations until the article is published.

Hey Michael, any chance you might be able to provide us with an English translation of the article when it is published?

VANDOO · 5th August 2011, 11:38 PM

DAVID ,LOVE THE BURL WOOD ON YOUR EXAMPLE

WHEN I FIRST RAN ACROSS THESE THE UNUSUAL SHAPE AND STRANGE NAME INTRIGUED ME. THE EXAMPLES I SAW WERE OLD BUT WERE PROBABLY TAILSMANIC OBJECTS AS THE PARMOR BLADES WERE SMALL AND THIN. MY ONLY REFRENCE WAS STONES GLOSSARY AND THERE ARE PICTURES AND INFORMATION ON SEVERAL EXAMPLES ON PAGE 395 & 396 FIGURES 493 AND 494 THEY ARE REFERRED TO AS KUDI TRANCHANG AND ONE INTERESTING PICTURE IS OF A BLADE 17.5 INCHES LONG WITH SEVERAL ROUND BRASS INLAY ALONG THE SPINE OF THE BLADE. NO SCANNER SO I CAN'T ADD THE PICTURES. I ALSO WONDER WHAT THE WORD TRANCHANG MEANS, SOME STRANGE EXAMPLES ON ONE PLATE WERE IDENTIFED AS A CARPENTERS TOOL.

VVV · 6th August 2011, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hey Michael, any chance you might be able to provide us with an English translation of the article when it is published?

Sure, I will give it a try.

Sajen · 25th January 2021, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have an article on the kujang by a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat. Based on his Sundanese informants he confirms all of the explanations of DaveA's source. It also contains some other explanations of the three holes based on Sundanese cardinal virtues as well as a form of wordplay based on the name kujang. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the exact details of the other explanations until the article is published.

Sadly Michael doesn't post anymore but maybe lurking time by time and can give an answer!

5th August 2011, 06:50 PM	#2
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 416	Veracity and discovering history I absolutely agree that a grain of salt (at least) is warranted. The dealer is a native of Solo, Java and deeply embedded in the culture. Melia is actually an accountant and is very motivated to preserve traditional Java culture and the artisanship such as crafting of the weapons we admire so much. By selling contemporary works, she helps keep the village industries alive. So while she definitely wants to sell, she also wants to get the story right. Her magical thinking is not uncommon -- it is part of the culture she wishes to preserve. It shouldn't necessarily disqualify other parts of her story that may be more grounded in fact (and easier to verify). I'm not a historian or ethnographer but as a scientist I am a true believer in evidence. All of these stories are interesting, but when considering them as reliable data our confidence must be tempered by great uncertainty until there there is more corroborating evidence. All theories are contingent.

5th August 2011, 04:05 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	The Seller lost me at this point : " Nowadays, the kujang is often decorated in homes as it is believed to bring about luck, protection, honor, etc. They are displayed in pairs on walls with the inner edge facing each other. There is a taboo, however--no one is to be photographed standing in-between them as this would somehow cause the death of that person within a year. I have been assured by a senior practitioner of Kejawen the truth of this, as he had witnessed this himself. Why this occurs is not known for certain, we might shrug it off as superstition, coincidence or synchronicity but behind every phenomenon cosmic laws and intelligences are at work; we just need to discover what those laws are and the mind-set of those metaphysical intelligences directing those laws to know the reason for the anomaly. " Pass the salt please .

5th August 2011, 07:26 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	Dave, i don't think that i or anyone here would question the value of selling contemporary examples of weapons and keeping alive the artisanship of creating these wonderful cultural weapons. But when we speak of traditional Javanese culture we must question which of those traditions we are talking about. Over the centuries the traditions have changed and the past has been somewhat "re-invented" numerous times. So which part of Javanese culture is she trying to preserve? It's pre-Hindu animistic traditions, it's Hindu influenced traditions, It's Islamic traditions or perhaps the relatively recent revival of Kejawen tradition? Add to this that the kudi is a Sundanese weapon which is not technically part of Javanese culture to begin with. So i am not implying that this woman is lying to you to make a sale, but she may well be relating information to you which is colored by her own specific belief system(s). "It shouldn't necessarily disqualify other parts of her story that may be more grounded in fact (and easier to verify)" I am curious exactly which part of her explanation you find to be "easier to verify".

5th August 2011, 07:33 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	I love (and buy) good contemporary work .

5th August 2011, 08:58 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I have an article on the kujang by a Swedish anthropologist who did field work on Sundanese Silat. Based on his Sundanese informants he confirms all of the explanations of DaveA's source. It also contains some other explanations of the three holes based on Sundanese cardinal virtues as well as a form of wordplay based on the name kujang. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the exact details of the other explanations until the article is published.

5th August 2011, 11:38 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	DAVID ,LOVE THE BURL WOOD ON YOUR EXAMPLE WHEN I FIRST RAN ACROSS THESE THE UNUSUAL SHAPE AND STRANGE NAME INTRIGUED ME. THE EXAMPLES I SAW WERE OLD BUT WERE PROBABLY TAILSMANIC OBJECTS AS THE PARMOR BLADES WERE SMALL AND THIN. MY ONLY REFRENCE WAS STONES GLOSSARY AND THERE ARE PICTURES AND INFORMATION ON SEVERAL EXAMPLES ON PAGE 395 & 396 FIGURES 493 AND 494 THEY ARE REFERRED TO AS KUDI TRANCHANG AND ONE INTERESTING PICTURE IS OF A BLADE 17.5 INCHES LONG WITH SEVERAL ROUND BRASS INLAY ALONG THE SPINE OF THE BLADE. NO SCANNER SO I CAN'T ADD THE PICTURES. I ALSO WONDER WHAT THE WORD TRANCHANG MEANS, SOME STRANGE EXAMPLES ON ONE PLATE WERE IDENTIFED AS A CARPENTERS TOOL.