2 swords for ID please.

katana · 2nd August 2011, 03:28 PM

Hi Jim

,
thank you ...I had seen French swords with a very similar pommel (on the fluted handled sabre) but they were shorter ....US could be a good call. Hopefully they will arrive soon and I'll be able to improve the description ... I suppose I should be a little more patient

...a few pictures isn't really much to go on

All the best

Kind Regards David

Jim McDougall · 3rd August 2011, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Jim

,
thank you ...I had seen French swords with a very similar pommel (on the fluted handled sabre) but they were shorter ....US could be a good call. Hopefully they will arrive soon and I'll be able to improve the description ... I suppose I should be a little more patient

...a few pictures isn't really much to go on

All the best

Kind Regards David

You bet David! I'm glad you posted these and we'll surely get closer in on the ID soon. I need to locate my copy of "The American Sword" (Peterson) on the fluted ivory one, and the other I'm pretty sure will turn up in Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons"). Both are pretty well buried in here!
Thank you as always for your kind response

All the best,
Jim

katana · 4th August 2011, 05:32 PM

Hi Jim

...helpful as usual

Swords have arrived....and have just had a quick basic clean....

Lion head pommel Sabre has a broad single fuller which finishes approx 6 1/2" from the point. The blade has a sharpened false edge and the spine has distal taper and the edge is still quite sharp. Handle leather over wood...no signs of there ever being any wire wrap. The ends of the remaining guard look to be 'snapped' off ...rather than cut

Blade length 83cms/32.5 "
Blade width at forte 28mm / 1 1/8"
Spine at forte 8mm/ 5/16"

Any ideas Gentlemen ??

Kind Regards David

katana · 4th August 2011, 05:44 PM

Fluted handle sword ....broad single fuller terminating approx 5" before the point, sharpened false edge, sharp edge and spine has distal taper. Handle material is 'organic' , no 'burnt hair' smell from 'hot pin test' ...so not certain what it is ...seems quite hard though (either through age or the material itself)

Blade length following curve 81cms/ 32"
Blade width at forte 28mm / 1 1/16"
Spine max thickness 5mm / 1/5"

Kind Regards David

fernando · 4th August 2011, 07:49 PM

Oh, i like the one with the organic material handle and the rather curved blade

katana · 5th August 2011, 12:19 PM

Hi 'Nando

,
I do too....although the handle may have been fitted upside down....it handles OK as it is...but looks slightly odd but does follow the line of the pommel section.....the handle has a lenghways split in it and I believe was removed (without removing pommel nut) and refixed the wrong way round. As there is no movement I'm assuming someone has used aradite

to stick it to the tang.
The sword is light and fast. Once identified ...I'll make a decision as to whether I repair/restore it.

Kind Regards David

Jim McDougall · 5th August 2011, 05:41 PM

David, these are both enticing sabers, and well worthy of being stabilized with conservative restoration (I always hate overcleaning....an old salt like me relates to patination)

I've been plowing through stuff here in the bookmobile but at the same time getting ready for another departure northward. In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons" Prague, 1967) I did find, as suspected, an Austrian parallel to the lionhead. On page 434, plate 64, this same basic style is seen on the sabre of a senior noncommissioned officer in the 'Prima Plana' infantry with the years 1776-1777.
In the case of the sabre illustrated in Wagner however, the hilt is in brass and has a knucklegard, and the quillon extends straight out (as on French military sabres). The ecusson/langet on the crossguard is this same rounded diamond shape, and is profiled.

While it is not a perfect match, it is the same lionhead form with capstan on pommel, the same langet form and similar grip type. This of course suggests the Continental provenance of the sabre and that your sabre is 'of the type' and probably produced in period or subsequently within reasonable time, but for other issue.
Is there evidence that a knuckleguard was present, as should be on these type hilts? The quillon is curiously pointed downward with no terminal, is it broken off? The metal is dull gray, can you tell what material?

As for the other sabre, still no match, but as previously noted, these type pommels are known to have been on French sabres which usually carried neoclassic themes in motif. The United States typically followed French fashions in military uniform and weaponry post-Revolutionary War but in larger degree at the opening of the 19th century (Federal Period).

In this sabre the pommel is of similar form to the officers swords later in the century, and the fluted grips also. French sword grips often had vertical fluting but ebony was much more common. The interesting vertically sectioned langet seems to suggest U.S. as well as the notably parabolically curved blade. These strong curves were much favored on some of the earlier U.S. sabres, particularly those made by the Virginia Manufactory. Many of these early sabres were incredibly long with dramatic curve, and most were shortened down by Confederate officers during the 'War Between the States' (Civil War) as I was told vehemently to call it when I lived in Nashville!
There is nothing comparable in "The American Sword" (H.L.Peterson) but I just noticed Fernando's astute comment....the material in the grip does indeed appear 'organic' and when cleaned...ebony? If so, this is French I would think.

As always.....more research to be done

All the best,
Jim

4th August 2011, 05:32 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim ...helpful as usual Swords have arrived....and have just had a quick basic clean.... Lion head pommel Sabre has a broad single fuller which finishes approx 6 1/2" from the point. The blade has a sharpened false edge and the spine has distal taper and the edge is still quite sharp. Handle leather over wood...no signs of there ever being any wire wrap. The ends of the remaining guard look to be 'snapped' off ...rather than cut Blade length 83cms/32.5 " Blade width at forte 28mm / 1 1/8" Spine at forte 8mm/ 5/16" Any ideas Gentlemen ?? Kind Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 4th August 2011 at 05:48 PM.

4th August 2011, 05:44 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Fluted handle sword ....broad single fuller terminating approx 5" before the point, sharpened false edge, sharp edge and spine has distal taper. Handle material is 'organic' , no 'burnt hair' smell from 'hot pin test' ...so not certain what it is ...seems quite hard though (either through age or the material itself) Blade length following curve 81cms/ 32" Blade width at forte 28mm / 1 1/16" Spine max thickness 5mm / 1/5" Kind Regards David Attached Images

2nd August 2011, 03:28 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jim , thank you ...I had seen French swords with a very similar pommel (on the fluted handled sabre) but they were shorter ....US could be a good call. Hopefully they will arrive soon and I'll be able to improve the description ... I suppose I should be a little more patient ...a few pictures isn't really much to go on All the best Kind Regards David

4th August 2011, 07:49 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh, i like the one with the organic material handle and the rather curved blade

5th August 2011, 12:19 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi 'Nando , I do too....although the handle may have been fitted upside down....it handles OK as it is...but looks slightly odd but does follow the line of the pommel section.....the handle has a lenghways split in it and I believe was removed (without removing pommel nut) and refixed the wrong way round. As there is no movement I'm assuming someone has used aradite to stick it to the tang. The sword is light and fast. Once identified ...I'll make a decision as to whether I repair/restore it. Kind Regards David

5th August 2011, 05:41 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	David, these are both enticing sabers, and well worthy of being stabilized with conservative restoration (I always hate overcleaning....an old salt like me relates to patination) I've been plowing through stuff here in the bookmobile but at the same time getting ready for another departure northward. In Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons" Prague, 1967) I did find, as suspected, an Austrian parallel to the lionhead. On page 434, plate 64, this same basic style is seen on the sabre of a senior noncommissioned officer in the 'Prima Plana' infantry with the years 1776-1777. In the case of the sabre illustrated in Wagner however, the hilt is in brass and has a knucklegard, and the quillon extends straight out (as on French military sabres). The ecusson/langet on the crossguard is this same rounded diamond shape, and is profiled. While it is not a perfect match, it is the same lionhead form with capstan on pommel, the same langet form and similar grip type. This of course suggests the Continental provenance of the sabre and that your sabre is 'of the type' and probably produced in period or subsequently within reasonable time, but for other issue. Is there evidence that a knuckleguard was present, as should be on these type hilts? The quillon is curiously pointed downward with no terminal, is it broken off? The metal is dull gray, can you tell what material? As for the other sabre, still no match, but as previously noted, these type pommels are known to have been on French sabres which usually carried neoclassic themes in motif. The United States typically followed French fashions in military uniform and weaponry post-Revolutionary War but in larger degree at the opening of the 19th century (Federal Period). In this sabre the pommel is of similar form to the officers swords later in the century, and the fluted grips also. French sword grips often had vertical fluting but ebony was much more common. The interesting vertically sectioned langet seems to suggest U.S. as well as the notably parabolically curved blade. These strong curves were much favored on some of the earlier U.S. sabres, particularly those made by the Virginia Manufactory. Many of these early sabres were incredibly long with dramatic curve, and most were shortened down by Confederate officers during the 'War Between the States' (Civil War) as I was told vehemently to call it when I lived in Nashville! There is nothing comparable in "The American Sword" (H.L.Peterson) but I just noticed Fernando's astute comment....the material in the grip does indeed appear 'organic' and when cleaned...ebony? If so, this is French I would think. As always.....more research to be done All the best, Jim