An Algerian musket ... and a translation needed?

fernando · 30th July 2011, 08:05 PM

Thank you all Gentlemen for your help and considerations

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

... It reads 'Amal e Omar (work of Omar) the number underneath read 126, if it was 4 digits then it could be the year it was made. I'm guessing a serial number. Nice musket by the way

...

Thank you so much for the precious translation, AJ1356. A valuable contribution indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

...How long is the barrel on your gun? Rick ...

The barrel measures 1,13 mts. (approx. 44 1/2"). The musket total length is 1,53 mts.; with a caliber of approx. 17 mm and a weight of 4 Kgs, incl. the ramrod. I wouldn't know whether the ramrod is the original one, but it fits fine and has a rather crude aspect, consistent with the period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

...I see the DOG lock has plenty of FELINE appreciation
Your two are much like ours...they like to get in the picture whenever possible ...

Oh Stu, they are worse than the silk worm. I tell them to move back, first gently and after followed by an utter yelling, but they don't give a sh...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

… I may be wrong, that occasionally A.H. dates have the last digit missing if it ends in a 0. If that was the case ? then it would be 1260 A.H. 1844 A.D., would be nice if it was ...

Bingo Norman. I have been digesting that hypothesis for a while; it makes a lot of sense. Looking at the Kabyle examples at Tirri's book, which later occurred to me to consult, the kind of date/s you suggest are similar to those in the book examples (Islamic Weapons, page 38).

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

… Unfortunately, it does not happen that someone would just leave the zero out. We have to remember that it was the Arabs who invented the zero. However it might be hiding under that yellow line ...

Not necessarily a question of failing or forgetting the zero, but maybe an option, like a habit practised by this or another smith, as Norman appears to know of.
I find it more plausible that the fourth digit is missing in a date, for whatever reason, than the three digits representing a serial number, specially in this type of weapons. The date 1260 A.H./1844 A.D. seems quite logical for this gun's age.
Anyway there is no fourth digit hiding under the yellow circle.

rickystl · 30th July 2011, 09:39 PM

Thanks Fernando. And glad you were able to get a translation. I need to do this with mine. Rick.

LPCA · 1st August 2011, 07:40 AM

Hi guys,

Fernando and Norman are right for the datation: 1260 A.H. 1844 A.D.
The qualification of Algerian rifle is also right but too wide.

In fact, we find 2 types of guns in Algeria:
the first is the berber gun whose stock is less wide than the type of the berber from Tetouan and Riff (Morocco).
the other is the Kabyle gun whose stock is the more narrow of all.
Same barrel and flintlock.

Now, the berber gun knew an embargo sooner than the berber one. After the fall of the regency of Algiers (1830), french troops regained most of the arms of the conquered territories and it was no longer possible to manufacture because the barrels were no longer imported.
The model kabyle survived longer until the fall of Kabylie in 1857.

See on my site BLADE,
the Berber Tetouan model...http://blade.japet.com/14-maroc.htm
The berber algerian model...http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-twin.htm
The Algerian Kabyle model...http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-coraux.htm
as often for this type of weapon, the decoration is later than the manufacture of the gun. Here barrel is XVIII° as flintlock and decoration is AH 1290/AD 1873

Hope that help.

Louis-Pierre

fernando · 1st August 2011, 01:51 PM

Merci beaucoup pour vos renseignements, Louis-Pierre

So you remind us that, the decoration of these guns was often added at a later stage; and certainly only by those who could afford it, i would guess.
The examples in your collection are excelent and highly valuable, both due to their age and silver+coral embellishments.
I am impressed by the imported barrels with the symbolic Lazzarino Cominazzi marks.
But tell me; although my gun is of a later production, should i beleive its shorter version barrel was also imported? Probably from Spain, although its marks are only a decorative detail, i guess; even barrels on guns to be sold in Spain often had meaningless punctions, so i have read.
Your further coments will be so much welcome.

rickystl · 1st August 2011, 03:37 PM

Louis: Thanks so much for the additional knowledge. Great looking guns in your photos!! Rick.

30th July 2011, 09:39 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Thanks Fernando. And glad you were able to get a translation. I need to do this with mine. Rick.

1st August 2011, 07:40 AM	#3
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hi guys, Fernando and Norman are right for the datation: 1260 A.H. 1844 A.D. The qualification of Algerian rifle is also right but too wide. In fact, we find 2 types of guns in Algeria: the first is the berber gun whose stock is less wide than the type of the berber from Tetouan and Riff (Morocco). the other is the Kabyle gun whose stock is the more narrow of all. Same barrel and flintlock. Now, the berber gun knew an embargo sooner than the berber one. After the fall of the regency of Algiers (1830), french troops regained most of the arms of the conquered territories and it was no longer possible to manufacture because the barrels were no longer imported. The model kabyle survived longer until the fall of Kabylie in 1857. See on my site BLADE, the Berber Tetouan model...http://blade.japet.com/14-maroc.htm The berber algerian model...http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-twin.htm The Algerian Kabyle model...http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-coraux.htm as often for this type of weapon, the decoration is later than the manufacture of the gun. Here barrel is XVIII° as flintlock and decoration is AH 1290/AD 1873 Hope that help. Louis-Pierre

1st August 2011, 01:51 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Merci beaucoup pour vos renseignements, Louis-Pierre So you remind us that, the decoration of these guns was often added at a later stage; and certainly only by those who could afford it, i would guess. The examples in your collection are excelent and highly valuable, both due to their age and silver+coral embellishments. I am impressed by the imported barrels with the symbolic Lazzarino Cominazzi marks. But tell me; although my gun is of a later production, should i beleive its shorter version barrel was also imported? Probably from Spain, although its marks are only a decorative detail, i guess; even barrels on guns to be sold in Spain often had meaningless punctions, so i have read. Your further coments will be so much welcome.

1st August 2011, 03:37 PM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Louis: Thanks so much for the additional knowledge. Great looking guns in your photos!! Rick.