Oman, Morocco or Zanzibar?

A.alnakkas · 30th July 2011, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

A.alnakkas
"It looks very small though"

Because it is a "Nimcha" :-)

Hey Ariel,

Can you explain more please? most of the nimchas I have seen ( have 3 personally) have european blades of normal length. I must say though, I like the length on this one, looks vicious!

ariel · 30th July 2011, 04:04 PM

Most of my info derives from Elgood's book, where he explains that nimcha has a connotation of being small. This one has a feel not of a Moroccan one, but of a South-Arabian ( Oman, perhaps, since they had more sophisticated tastes and were a seafaring bunch). Such swords are quite useless as cavalry weapons and would not be suitable for horse or camel riders, but ideal for sea battles, analogous to european cutlases.

Kurt, it is a beauty!!!

Jim McDougall · 30th July 2011, 04:06 PM

Kurt,
Most interesting example . The term 'nimcha' has been most often colloquially applied to the Moroccan sa'ifs which typically have this distinct hilt system. This hilt type with downturned quillons and incorporated upswept knuckle guard developed from probably Italian hilts possibly as early as 16th century, but did not attain wide popularity in the Maghreb until the 17th.

The blades on most of the sa'if's in Morocco which we know as 'nim'cha (=Ar. short sword) are interestingly with full length blades, as typically they were from European trade blades readily available in the trade networks to the ports of the North African littoral. Also the well known 'Barbary Pirates' brought materials including blades to these areas.

The hilt style on this weapon actually seems Arabian to me, and has strong resemblances to Hadhramauti types of swords (the discs are seen usually in repousse silver karabela type hilts), and the scabbard which along with the mounts seems more modern of course than the blade. The blade resembles earlier European military types of 18th-19th century sidearms and of 'cutlass' type. This incarnation seems to be Ottoman sphere quite likely Arab and recalling the much shorter hanger/cutlass type weapons that were well known in Arabian regions in Ottoman control and favored for maritime use.

I know I have seen this hilt (with the peaked extension at top of hilt) and the swirled motif embossed in the leather of the scabbard but need to look further.
In the meantime, very nice example Kurt, and hope my thoughts are of some help.

All best regards,
Jim

Kurt · 30th July 2011, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Kurt,
Most interesting example . The term 'nimcha' has been most often colloquially applied to the Moroccan sa'ifs which typically have this distinct hilt system. This hilt type with downturned quillons and incorporated upswept knuckle guard developed from probably Italian hilts possibly as early as 16th century, but did not attain wide popularity in the Maghreb until the 17th.

The blades on most of the sa'if's in Morocco which we know as 'nim'cha (=Ar. short sword) are interestingly with full length blades, as typically they were from European trade blades readily available in the trade networks to the ports of the North African littoral. Also the well known 'Barbary Pirates' brought materials including blades to these areas.

The hilt style on this weapon actually seems Arabian to me, and has strong resemblances to Hadhramauti types of swords (the discs are seen usually in repousse silver karabela type hilts), and the scabbard which along with the mounts seems more modern of course than the blade. The blade resembles earlier European military types of 18th-19th century sidearms and of 'cutlass' type. This incarnation seems to be Ottoman sphere quite likely Arab and recalling the much shorter hanger/cutlass type weapons that were well known in Arabian regions in Ottoman control and favored for maritime use.

I know I have seen this hilt (with the peaked extension at top of hilt) and the swirled motif embossed in the leather of the scabbard but need to look further.
In the meantime, very nice example Kurt, and hope my thoughts are of some help.

All best regards,
Jim

Thanks Jim ,
I think like you can see it is typical lether motif of Oman.
18 century ??

Regards
Kurt

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th September 2011, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Kurt,
Most interesting example . The term 'nimcha' has been most often colloquially applied to the Moroccan sa'ifs which typically have this distinct hilt system. This hilt type with downturned quillons and incorporated upswept knuckle guard developed from probably Italian hilts possibly as early as 16th century, but did not attain wide popularity in the Maghreb until the 17th.

The blades on most of the sa'if's in Morocco which we know as 'nim'cha (=Ar. short sword) are interestingly with full length blades, as typically they were from European trade blades readily available in the trade networks to the ports of the North African littoral. Also the well known 'Barbary Pirates' brought materials including blades to these areas.

The hilt style on this weapon actually seems Arabian to me, and has strong resemblances to Hadhramauti types of swords (the discs are seen usually in repousse silver karabela type hilts), and the scabbard which along with the mounts seems more modern of course than the blade. The blade resembles earlier European military types of 18th-19th century sidearms and of 'cutlass' type. This incarnation seems to be Ottoman sphere quite likely Arab and recalling the much shorter hanger/cutlass type weapons that were well known in Arabian regions in Ottoman control and favored for maritime use.

I know I have seen this hilt (with the peaked extension at top of hilt) and the swirled motif embossed in the leather of the scabbard but need to look further.
In the meantime, very nice example Kurt, and hope my thoughts are of some help.

All best regards,
Jim

Salaams Jim, The Hadramaut is a place I need to go and see... regret however that it is probably 50 years too late. As a compensation I have just read a dusty old mid sixtys copy of Hammond Innes "Harvest of Journeys" where in the first part he is winging around that area which was in part a British Protectorate and in one small town he describes it as totally Javanese!! (at that point the bells are ringing !! ) The (once but in decline) rich Yemeni landlords of Java..In the Hadramaut ! I am still stunned by the revelation. Regards Ibrahiim.

LPCA · 6th September 2011, 06:30 PM

Salam Ibrahim,

I do agree with you that Europe is one track among others. It would be appropriate to leave the Eastern door wide open.
The Arabs were great traders and great travelers. No doubt that from their settlements in India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, ... they brought innovations in all areas, including arms.

I own exactly the same Nimcha shown by kahnjar1. It is an arab nimcha made in Zanzibar, for Yemen i believe.

There are some keys to better recognize the different saïf and nimcha.

1 - the button that blocks the tang: see image (left: zanzibari - right: maghrebi - often a coin)
2 - the profile: see image - from left Saïf - Zanzibari - Maghrebi
3 - the Guard: first image: D Zanzibari guard - Second image: straight guard Maghrebi
3 - the protection against the shots sliding over the flat of the blade
image 1: Maghrebi protection (pitones) - image 2: Zanzibari protection.

With my kind regards
Louis-Pierre

LPCA · 6th September 2011, 06:36 PM

here are the images

LPCA

kahnjar1 · 6th September 2011, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LPCA

Salam Ibrahim,

I do agree with you that Europe is one track among others. It would be appropriate to leave the Eastern door wide open.
The Arabs were great traders and great travelers. No doubt that from their settlements in India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, ... they brought innovations in all areas, including arms.

I own exactly the same Nimcha shown by kahnjar1. It is an arab nimcha made in Zanzibar, for Yemen i believe.

There are some keys to better recognize the different saïf and nimcha.

1 - the button that blocks the tang: see image (left: zanzibari - right: maghrebi - often a coin)
2 - the profile: see image - from left Saïf - Zanzibari - Maghrebi
3 - the Guard: first image: D Zanzibari guard - Second image: straight guard Maghrebi
3 - the protection against the shots sliding over the flat of the blade
image 1: Maghrebi protection (pitones) - image 2: Zanzibari protection.

With my kind regards
Louis-Pierre

Thanks Louis-Pierre, I think that clarifies things, and I do appreciate your clear comparisons.
If the idea of the hilt shape is sourced from other cultures or not, I guess we in the 21st Centuiry will never know for sure. Many long hours and thousands of words mean nothing without CONCLUSIVE proof, and I suspect that hundreds of years on, we will never be absolutely sure. Sufficient to say, we can only go on information we currently have to hand.
Regards Stu

LPCA · 7th September 2011, 05:59 AM

Hello Stu,

Yes, you're right. It is very difficult today to have a final decision on the origins of Moroccan or Arab Zanzibari Nimcha. That is why this subject is open and no door can not be truly closed.

Take the case of this Nimcha from Oriental Arms. I trust Adni of Aïfa when he described it as Zanzibari. Yet its profile and its guard are those of a Moroccan nimcha while its protection is typical of a Zanzibari nimcha .

I got in Algiers in 1962 (independence of Algeria) in stocks of the French Army a number of weapons that were taken of war in 1830. Among them, a Moroccan nimcha used by defenders of Alger. This shows that different types of weapons were circulating well throughout the Maghreb.

Now, armed Algerian troops ensured the protection of convoys of traveling pilgrims each year to Mecca. Possible that the Moroccan nimcha of an Algerian soldier has inspired a Yemeni pilgrim who then placed an order in Zanzibar. Why not?
This is how travel perhaps influences.

Regards Louis-Pierre

kahnjar1 · 7th September 2011, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LPCA

Hello Stu,

Yes, you're right. It is very difficult today to have a final decision on the origins of Moroccan or Arab Zanzibari Nimcha. That is why this subject is open and no door can not be truly closed.

Take the case of this Nimcha from Oriental Arms. I trust Adni of Aïfa when he described it as Zanzibari. Yet its profile and its guard are those of a Moroccan nimcha while its protection is typical of a Zanzibari nimcha .

I got in Algiers in 1962 (independence of Algeria) in stocks of the French Army a number of weapons that were taken of war in 1830. Among them, a Moroccan nimcha used by defenders of Alger. This shows that different types of weapons were circulating well throughout the Maghreb.

Now, armed Algerian troops ensured the protection of convoys of traveling pilgrims each year to Mecca. Possible that the Moroccan nimcha of an Algerian soldier has inspired a Yemeni pilgrim who then placed an order in Zanzibar. Why not?
This is how travel perhaps influences.

Regards Louis-Pierre

I have no doubt that travel and trade over the years have indeed influenced styles in (amongst other things) weapons. However it is also beyond doubt that the exact origins of styles can only be assumed by the scholars of today. There can be no DEFINATE claims made unless of course there is documented and RELIABLE proof from earlier times.
Stu

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 29th March 2014, 04:09 PM

Salaams all... Whilst rumbling about in Library I was inspired to look for relative design style of the Zanzibar Nimcha hilt decoration...and in trying to identify Zanzibar as the manufactuiring base for such items...This of course is very difficult and readers are cautioned that the entire African coastal strip on mainland Africa in that region was called Zanj. Personally I suspect that other Nimcha sword forms originated in the Zanj (perhaps I will expend on that theory later) however, for now the intriguing design to an Ivory "Zanzibari" Comb bearing the same style as the hilt of the Zanzibari Nimcha shown ... from http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/65.html

There are many Nimcha references on Library e.g http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha from which the sword below is borrowed.

For Interest I also show the Buttin page.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 30th March 2014, 03:35 AM

Absolutely excellent entry Ibrahiim, and good comparison of decorative style of Zanzibari material culture applied on this sa'if hilt of 'nimcha' style. In this case we have compelling evidence comparatively suggesting this sword to have been produced in Zanzibar.
It is interesting to note that the 'D' ring guard feature which has been claimed to be a characteristic of these swords produced in Zanzibar is notably absent.

As I noted in a concurrent thread on Zanzibar nimchas, in rechecking the Buttin reference shown, all of these examples shown (#996-1002) are classified as "Arab' and from 17th into 18th centuries.

6th September 2011, 06:36 PM	#7
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	here are the images LPCA Attached Images

29th March 2014, 04:09 PM	#11
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Zanzibari Nimcha...Ivory Comb...Buttin. Salaams all... Whilst rumbling about in Library I was inspired to look for relative design style of the Zanzibar Nimcha hilt decoration...and in trying to identify Zanzibar as the manufactuiring base for such items...This of course is very difficult and readers are cautioned that the entire African coastal strip on mainland Africa in that region was called Zanj. Personally I suspect that other Nimcha sword forms originated in the Zanj (perhaps I will expend on that theory later) however, for now the intriguing design to an Ivory "Zanzibari" Comb bearing the same style as the hilt of the Zanzibari Nimcha shown ... from http://www.michaelbackmanltd.com/65.html There are many Nimcha references on Library e.g http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha from which the sword below is borrowed. For Interest I also show the Buttin page. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 29th March 2014 at 04:20 PM.

30th July 2011, 04:04 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Most of my info derives from Elgood's book, where he explains that nimcha has a connotation of being small. This one has a feel not of a Moroccan one, but of a South-Arabian ( Oman, perhaps, since they had more sophisticated tastes and were a seafaring bunch). Such swords are quite useless as cavalry weapons and would not be suitable for horse or camel riders, but ideal for sea battles, analogous to european cutlases. Kurt, it is a beauty!!!

30th July 2011, 04:06 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Kurt, Most interesting example . The term 'nimcha' has been most often colloquially applied to the Moroccan sa'ifs which typically have this distinct hilt system. This hilt type with downturned quillons and incorporated upswept knuckle guard developed from probably Italian hilts possibly as early as 16th century, but did not attain wide popularity in the Maghreb until the 17th. The blades on most of the sa'if's in Morocco which we know as 'nim'cha (=Ar. short sword) are interestingly with full length blades, as typically they were from European trade blades readily available in the trade networks to the ports of the North African littoral. Also the well known 'Barbary Pirates' brought materials including blades to these areas. The hilt style on this weapon actually seems Arabian to me, and has strong resemblances to Hadhramauti types of swords (the discs are seen usually in repousse silver karabela type hilts), and the scabbard which along with the mounts seems more modern of course than the blade. The blade resembles earlier European military types of 18th-19th century sidearms and of 'cutlass' type. This incarnation seems to be Ottoman sphere quite likely Arab and recalling the much shorter hanger/cutlass type weapons that were well known in Arabian regions in Ottoman control and favored for maritime use. I know I have seen this hilt (with the peaked extension at top of hilt) and the swirled motif embossed in the leather of the scabbard but need to look further. In the meantime, very nice example Kurt, and hope my thoughts are of some help. All best regards, Jim

6th September 2011, 06:30 PM	#6
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Salam Ibrahim, I do agree with you that Europe is one track among others. It would be appropriate to leave the Eastern door wide open. The Arabs were great traders and great travelers. No doubt that from their settlements in India, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, ... they brought innovations in all areas, including arms. I own exactly the same Nimcha shown by kahnjar1. It is an arab nimcha made in Zanzibar, for Yemen i believe. There are some keys to better recognize the different saïf and nimcha. 1 - the button that blocks the tang: see image (left: zanzibari - right: maghrebi - often a coin) 2 - the profile: see image - from left Saïf - Zanzibari - Maghrebi 3 - the Guard: first image: D Zanzibari guard - Second image: straight guard Maghrebi 3 - the protection against the shots sliding over the flat of the blade image 1: Maghrebi protection (pitones) - image 2: Zanzibari protection. With my kind regards Louis-Pierre

7th September 2011, 05:59 AM	#9
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hello Stu, Yes, you're right. It is very difficult today to have a final decision on the origins of Moroccan or Arab Zanzibari Nimcha. That is why this subject is open and no door can not be truly closed. Take the case of this Nimcha from Oriental Arms. I trust Adni of Aïfa when he described it as Zanzibari. Yet its profile and its guard are those of a Moroccan nimcha while its protection is typical of a Zanzibari nimcha . I got in Algiers in 1962 (independence of Algeria) in stocks of the French Army a number of weapons that were taken of war in 1830. Among them, a Moroccan nimcha used by defenders of Alger. This shows that different types of weapons were circulating well throughout the Maghreb. Now, armed Algerian troops ensured the protection of convoys of traveling pilgrims each year to Mecca. Possible that the Moroccan nimcha of an Algerian soldier has inspired a Yemeni pilgrim who then placed an order in Zanzibar. Why not? This is how travel perhaps influences. Regards Louis-Pierre

30th March 2014, 03:35 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Absolutely excellent entry Ibrahiim, and good comparison of decorative style of Zanzibari material culture applied on this sa'if hilt of 'nimcha' style. In this case we have compelling evidence comparatively suggesting this sword to have been produced in Zanzibar. It is interesting to note that the 'D' ring guard feature which has been claimed to be a characteristic of these swords produced in Zanzibar is notably absent. As I noted in a concurrent thread on Zanzibar nimchas, in rechecking the Buttin reference shown, all of these examples shown (#996-1002) are classified as "Arab' and from 17th into 18th centuries.