An Algerian musket ... and a translation needed?

Norman McCormick · 30th July 2011, 03:35 PM

Hi Fernando,
Nice gun

I think, I may be wrong, that occasionally A.H. dates have the last digit missing if it ends in a 0. If that was the case ? then it would be 1260 A.H. 1844 A.D., would be nice if it was

My Regards,
Norman.

AJ1356 · 30th July 2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Fernando,
Nice gun

I think, I may be wrong, that occasionally A.H. dates have the last digit missing if it ends in a 0. If that was the case ? then it would be 1260 A.H. 1844 A.D., would be nice if it was

My Regards,
Norman.

Unfortunetly, it does not happen that someone would just leave the zero out. We have to remember that it was the Arabs who invented the zero. However it might be hiding under that yellow line

fernando · 30th July 2011, 09:05 PM

Thank you all Gentlemen for your help and considerations

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

... It reads 'Amal e Omar (work of Omar) the number underneath read 126, if it was 4 digits then it could be the year it was made. I'm guessing a serial number. Nice musket by the way

...

Thank you so much for the precious translation, AJ1356. A valuable contribution indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

...How long is the barrel on your gun? Rick ...

The barrel measures 1,13 mts. (approx. 44 1/2"). The musket total length is 1,53 mts.; with a caliber of approx. 17 mm and a weight of 4 Kgs, incl. the ramrod. I wouldn't know whether the ramrod is the original one, but it fits fine and has a rather crude aspect, consistent with the period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

...I see the DOG lock has plenty of FELINE appreciation
Your two are much like ours...they like to get in the picture whenever possible ...

Oh Stu, they are worse than the silk worm. I tell them to move back, first gently and after followed by an utter yelling, but they don't give a sh...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

… I may be wrong, that occasionally A.H. dates have the last digit missing if it ends in a 0. If that was the case ? then it would be 1260 A.H. 1844 A.D., would be nice if it was ...

Bingo Norman. I have been digesting that hypothesis for a while; it makes a lot of sense. Looking at the Kabyle examples at Tirri's book, which later occurred to me to consult, the kind of date/s you suggest are similar to those in the book examples (Islamic Weapons, page 38).

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

… Unfortunately, it does not happen that someone would just leave the zero out. We have to remember that it was the Arabs who invented the zero. However it might be hiding under that yellow line ...

Not necessarily a question of failing or forgetting the zero, but maybe an option, like a habit practised by this or another smith, as Norman appears to know of.
I find it more plausible that the fourth digit is missing in a date, for whatever reason, than the three digits representing a serial number, specially in this type of weapons. The date 1260 A.H./1844 A.D. seems quite logical for this gun's age.
Anyway there is no fourth digit hiding under the yellow circle.

rickystl · 30th July 2011, 10:39 PM

Thanks Fernando. And glad you were able to get a translation. I need to do this with mine. Rick.

LPCA · 1st August 2011, 08:40 AM

Hi guys,

Fernando and Norman are right for the datation: 1260 A.H. 1844 A.D.
The qualification of Algerian rifle is also right but too wide.

In fact, we find 2 types of guns in Algeria:
the first is the berber gun whose stock is less wide than the type of the berber from Tetouan and Riff (Morocco).
the other is the Kabyle gun whose stock is the more narrow of all.
Same barrel and flintlock.

Now, the berber gun knew an embargo sooner than the berber one. After the fall of the regency of Algiers (1830), french troops regained most of the arms of the conquered territories and it was no longer possible to manufacture because the barrels were no longer imported.
The model kabyle survived longer until the fall of Kabylie in 1857.

See on my site BLADE,
the Berber Tetouan model...http://blade.japet.com/14-maroc.htm
The berber algerian model...http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-twin.htm
The Algerian Kabyle model...http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-coraux.htm
as often for this type of weapon, the decoration is later than the manufacture of the gun. Here barrel is XVIII° as flintlock and decoration is AH 1290/AD 1873

Hope that help.

Louis-Pierre

fernando · 1st August 2011, 02:51 PM

Merci beaucoup pour vos renseignements, Louis-Pierre

So you remind us that, the decoration of these guns was often added at a later stage; and certainly only by those who could afford it, i would guess.
The examples in your collection are excelent and highly valuable, both due to their age and silver+coral embellishments.
I am impressed by the imported barrels with the symbolic Lazzarino Cominazzi marks.
But tell me; although my gun is of a later production, should i beleive its shorter version barrel was also imported? Probably from Spain, although its marks are only a decorative detail, i guess; even barrels on guns to be sold in Spain often had meaningless punctions, so i have read.
Your further coments will be so much welcome.

rickystl · 1st August 2011, 04:37 PM

Louis: Thanks so much for the additional knowledge. Great looking guns in your photos!! Rick.

fernando · 1st August 2011, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

... We have to remember that it was the Arabs who invented the zero...

Complicating things is the last of my wishes but ... wasn't the first representation of the zero made in India by the year 500 AD and from there brought to the west by Arab traders?

AJ1356 · 1st August 2011, 06:05 PM

You are right, seems like i was misinformed

LPCA · 1st August 2011, 06:49 PM

Hello friends, thanks for your comments.

No barrel being made in Algeria, they were imported.
They could be obtained by the offshore grips, but so much blades were reused or transformed , so much barrels were abandoned. Maybe for a question of length or for calibre? The barrels used by the Algerian were long and the calibre was normally 16 mm.

They imported 2 models of barrels:

Barbarin model (coming from the word Barbaresque)):
octogonal on all its length
mouth of the barrel in form of tulipe
North of Italy import via Genoa
generally signed near the thunder (Cominazzo, ...)

Janissairy model
Octagonal (thunder), then rounded off up to the mouth
Ottoman or Balkan import

I add that usually the Janissairy model is shorter than the Barbarin.

It seems that your barrel is a Janissairy type and the very good marks and writings seems to confirm it.

As for the ZERO (0):
The zero really appeared towards 870 in Indian papers.

In 3rd century, three centuries before the Indians, the Mayan had developed a system of numeration very pushed, based on the art of the calendar and the astronomy and with a numeration of position on base 20 and containing the zero.

Al-Khwarizmi (from Bagdad) published a book in 820, presenting the new Indian figures. This book will be translated by Robert de Chester into Spain at the beginning of XIIth century.

To resume, beyond the Mayan, the creation is Indian and the popularization is arabic.

See U.

Louis

fernando · 1st August 2011, 08:36 PM

Thank you so much for your encyclopedic knowledge on these guns, Louis-Pierre

Let me go and digest all such info !

30th July 2011, 03:35 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,646	Hi Fernando, Nice gun I think, I may be wrong, that occasionally A.H. dates have the last digit missing if it ends in a 0. If that was the case ? then it would be 1260 A.H. 1844 A.D., would be nice if it was My Regards, Norman.

30th July 2011, 10:39 PM	#4
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Thanks Fernando. And glad you were able to get a translation. I need to do this with mine. Rick.

1st August 2011, 08:40 AM	#5
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hi guys, Fernando and Norman are right for the datation: 1260 A.H. 1844 A.D. The qualification of Algerian rifle is also right but too wide. In fact, we find 2 types of guns in Algeria: the first is the berber gun whose stock is less wide than the type of the berber from Tetouan and Riff (Morocco). the other is the Kabyle gun whose stock is the more narrow of all. Same barrel and flintlock. Now, the berber gun knew an embargo sooner than the berber one. After the fall of the regency of Algiers (1830), french troops regained most of the arms of the conquered territories and it was no longer possible to manufacture because the barrels were no longer imported. The model kabyle survived longer until the fall of Kabylie in 1857. See on my site BLADE, the Berber Tetouan model...http://blade.japet.com/14-maroc.htm The berber algerian model...http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-twin.htm The Algerian Kabyle model...http://blade.japet.com/B-mok-coraux.htm as often for this type of weapon, the decoration is later than the manufacture of the gun. Here barrel is XVIII° as flintlock and decoration is AH 1290/AD 1873 Hope that help. Louis-Pierre

1st August 2011, 02:51 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Merci beaucoup pour vos renseignements, Louis-Pierre So you remind us that, the decoration of these guns was often added at a later stage; and certainly only by those who could afford it, i would guess. The examples in your collection are excelent and highly valuable, both due to their age and silver+coral embellishments. I am impressed by the imported barrels with the symbolic Lazzarino Cominazzi marks. But tell me; although my gun is of a later production, should i beleive its shorter version barrel was also imported? Probably from Spain, although its marks are only a decorative detail, i guess; even barrels on guns to be sold in Spain often had meaningless punctions, so i have read. Your further coments will be so much welcome.

1st August 2011, 04:37 PM	#7
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,633	Louis: Thanks so much for the additional knowledge. Great looking guns in your photos!! Rick.

1st August 2011, 06:05 PM	#9
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	You are right, seems like i was misinformed

1st August 2011, 06:49 PM	#10
LPCA Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Toulouse - FRANCE Posts: 83	Hello friends, thanks for your comments. No barrel being made in Algeria, they were imported. They could be obtained by the offshore grips, but so much blades were reused or transformed , so much barrels were abandoned. Maybe for a question of length or for calibre? The barrels used by the Algerian were long and the calibre was normally 16 mm. They imported 2 models of barrels: Barbarin model (coming from the word Barbaresque)): octogonal on all its length mouth of the barrel in form of tulipe North of Italy import via Genoa generally signed near the thunder (Cominazzo, ...) Janissairy model Octagonal (thunder), then rounded off up to the mouth Ottoman or Balkan import I add that usually the Janissairy model is shorter than the Barbarin. It seems that your barrel is a Janissairy type and the very good marks and writings seems to confirm it. As for the ZERO (0): The zero really appeared towards 870 in Indian papers. In 3rd century, three centuries before the Indians, the Mayan had developed a system of numeration very pushed, based on the art of the calendar and the astronomy and with a numeration of position on base 20 and containing the zero. Al-Khwarizmi (from Bagdad) published a book in 820, presenting the new Indian figures. This book will be translated by Robert de Chester into Spain at the beginning of XIIth century. To resume, beyond the Mayan, the creation is Indian and the popularization is arabic. See U. Louis

1st August 2011, 08:36 PM	#11
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you so much for your encyclopedic knowledge on these guns, Louis-Pierre Let me go and digest all such info !