Modern 'wootz' going into commercial production.

ariel · 28th July 2011, 11:41 AM

I would suggest we pull together our first impressions of this masterpiece: what feature immediately prompted us to conclude it was not a real wootz?
For me, it was a striking uniformity of the pattern across the blade. Usually, with manual forging, the pattern of lines gets simplified along the edge ( likely, due to higher number and force of hammer strikes). Here, it is perfectly monotonous, indicating machine process.

A. G. Maisey · 28th July 2011, 02:39 PM

All of the knives that I use to eat my meals with are 19th century English shear steel.

Sometimes they get etched with tomato juice, or some other acid in the food, and I need to polish them clean with Ajax and Scotchbrite --- my wife won't do it, she wants to know why I won't eat with the perfectly good stainless steel knives we've got.

Anyway, the material in this pic does not look even remotely like the shear steel I use several times a day.

Shear steel is not really all that much different to mechanical damascus --- another material I'm more than just a little familiar with --- and it most certainly is not mechanical damascus either.

I don't know what this stuff in the picture is, but it does not look like mechanically manipulated material to me.

Please accept my apologies for being so disagreeable.

Atlantia · 28th July 2011, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

All of the knives that I use to eat my meals with are 19th century English shear steel.

Sometimes they get etched with tomato juice, or some other acid in the food, and I need to polish them clean with Ajax and Scotchbrite --- my wife won't do it, she wants to know why I won't eat with the perfectly good stainless steel knives we've got.

Anyway, the material in this pic does not look even remotely like the shear steel I use several times a day.

Shear steel is not really all that much different to mechanical damascus --- another material I'm more than just a little familiar with --- and it most certainly is not mechanical damascus either.

I don't know what this stuff in the picture is, but it does not look like mechanically manipulated material to me.

Please accept my apologies for being so disagreeable.

Ah, which takes us back to here doesn't it?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=bowie

CharlesS · 28th July 2011, 03:32 PM

I agree with A.G....this looks more like etchant work that truely worked wootz.

Richard Furrer · 28th July 2011, 10:49 PM

As someone who makes both wootz and shear steel I can say a few things.

Could be alloy banding..a lot of that going on and some modern steels allow this effect to occur rather easily. I have seen this in 1050, 52100,1095, 5160, Modern S,D,H,W and T series tool steels and can be done with difficult with others.

Regardless of what pattern is on the surface the real key is two fold..is the pattern the result of carbides and what is the initial manufacturing process? This is dependent upon carbon levels and how the steel is thermally processed before and during forging and if it is done in a crucible or not. I also believe the argument that modern steels are melted in a crucible to be miss-leading.

Wootz on a mass produced modern Chinese sword?...let me think about that for a few years or more and I'll give you my opinion on that.

Ric

28th July 2011, 11:41 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would suggest we pull together our first impressions of this masterpiece: what feature immediately prompted us to conclude it was not a real wootz? For me, it was a striking uniformity of the pattern across the blade. Usually, with manual forging, the pattern of lines gets simplified along the edge ( likely, due to higher number and force of hammer strikes). Here, it is perfectly monotonous, indicating machine process.

28th July 2011, 02:39 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	All of the knives that I use to eat my meals with are 19th century English shear steel. Sometimes they get etched with tomato juice, or some other acid in the food, and I need to polish them clean with Ajax and Scotchbrite --- my wife won't do it, she wants to know why I won't eat with the perfectly good stainless steel knives we've got. Anyway, the material in this pic does not look even remotely like the shear steel I use several times a day. Shear steel is not really all that much different to mechanical damascus --- another material I'm more than just a little familiar with --- and it most certainly is not mechanical damascus either. I don't know what this stuff in the picture is, but it does not look like mechanically manipulated material to me. Please accept my apologies for being so disagreeable.

28th July 2011, 03:32 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	I agree with A.G....this looks more like etchant work that truely worked wootz.

28th July 2011, 10:49 PM	#5
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	As someone who makes both wootz and shear steel I can say a few things. Could be alloy banding..a lot of that going on and some modern steels allow this effect to occur rather easily. I have seen this in 1050, 52100,1095, 5160, Modern S,D,H,W and T series tool steels and can be done with difficult with others. Regardless of what pattern is on the surface the real key is two fold..is the pattern the result of carbides and what is the initial manufacturing process? This is dependent upon carbon levels and how the steel is thermally processed before and during forging and if it is done in a crucible or not. I also believe the argument that modern steels are melted in a crucible to be miss-leading. Wootz on a mass produced modern Chinese sword?...let me think about that for a few years or more and I'll give you my opinion on that. Ric