mysterious marking on kaskara

[Edster]

This is an interesting thread. Brings back lots of memories.

I am intrigued by Mark's sword. It is stylistically unique, at least to me. I am not familiar with the style of grip and handle. Also, the long piece perpendicular to the cross guard (don't know its technical name) appears to be riveted to the grip and due to its length must have been forge welded to the cross piece. The gross piece itself is tapered and appears to be of good quality and maybe early 19th Century.

The blade is also interesting. I agree with you Mark that it just looks old. The small missing peace appears to be an old chip-out possible from being struck from another sword. It some how looks thicker than many I have seen and may have been made from wrought iron, thus not an imported trade blade. Many of the native Sudanese blades of the Mahdi period and well before were brittle and broke during battle. It could well be an heirloom blade done up in more modern livery

As has been noted several times on the Forum, we have no good means to date blades. The oldest kaskara I know of with attribution are museum pieces reputed to have belonged to Ali Dinar around 1821, I think. That blade is presumably imported. Maker's marks are of some help since the "maker" has a known production life span, but many marks are copied or intrepeted locally as those posts discuss above.

Perhaps we can develop a data base of metallurgical analysis. This may be difficult with collector pieces in that investigation leaves a mark about the size of a dime. Photomicrographs requires an etching and polishing a small portion of the blade, but the crystaline structure of the blade can be very telling. Is it wrought iron, mild steel, carbon steel, other alloy steel? Was it work hardened or quenched and tempered or just quenched? My knowledge is limited to memories of metallurgical course some 50 years ago, but I enjoyed the lab work.

The watershed in native Sudanese blade materials came with the British occupation and railroad construction after 1899 when modern steel became available locally and in large amounts. At least in 1986 and probably before Kassala blades were made from lorry leaf springs. This material no doubt has a metallurgical signature, likewise do Soligen and other import blades as well as wrought iron. I have seen demonstrations of leaf spring Kassala blades being bent almost double and spring back without any evidence of set. (The process can be tricky and dangerous if you don't have the knack.) Also, by holding the blade pointed up it can be shook rapidly and seem to quiver in your hand. Will older European blades, perhaps not made of spring steeel do that?

Who on the forum has metallurgical expertise and maybe a metallurgical microscope and Brinnel hardness tester, and who has blades that they would be willing to suffer a polished spot as a sample? Perhaps we could do a workshop next year at Timonium with esperts who knows what they are talking about. Certainly not me.

Regards,
Ed

[Jeff D]

I have the exact same blade in much better condition. As stated by Jim the maker is Kull and is mid 19th Century. See this thread for pictures and references.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Cronau

All the Best
Jeff

[Iain]

Unless my memory is really going, assuming this is a trade blade it is a Kull blade, specifically the 1847 export pattern and not uncommon in kaskara. I have a scan somewhere from the blade markings book where it is positively IDed, if you want to PM or email me I'd be happy to send it to you. These blades also appear in takouba, but reprofiled with narrow, rounded tips. There are also native copies, often without the stamps but very similar geometry. The stamps on this one appear clear however and, from as much as I can see in the photos appears to match other Kull examples precisely.

So, in summary, Peter Kull, mid 1800s, a well liked export pattern in the Sudan that also found it's way into takouba. I'm more intrigued by the pommel on your sword to be honest, what on earth is it made of? Never seen one quite like it.

[Cuirassier]

Thanks for the replies.

Sorry, I do not believe this is an 19th Century Prussian blade, at all, 100% not.

I may not have an 1100 / 1200 Crusader blade, but I absolutely do not have a 19th Century Prussian blade either; the later I can speak with some level of knowledge.

Why would a 19C Prussian blade maker;
a) Traditionally hand forge a blade in the old European style / methods?
b) Copy a bulbous blade from hundreds of years before? Remember, the blade in mine and other similar kaskaras do not have an essential facet of European blades post, what, 17th Century; a forte.
c) Risk being the laughing stock of Prussia / Solingen; the centre of the sword making industry in Europe?

Conjecture.
Someone in the Sudan lands copied the mayfly trademark of Peter Kull, the orb of various earlier European swords, then added their own lion. Then, one day, a sword expert came along and found a few of these blades. "Ah, the mark of Peter Kull. So these other markings must be his too.". I notice I believe that these various marks are stated as being "attributed with" or "connected to" Kull, not known 100% marks of his? Nor would they be in 19th Century Solingen. Prussian makers made fine etched blades, not iron rich traditionally forged lumps with such basic maker marks (mayfly) stamped into them. Prussian blade makers were very proud; this is NOT a 19th Century Prussian blade.

I am not trying to convince myself I have the legend (a Crusader's blade). It most likely is a locally made blade IMHO. The trouble is, if I get the blade carbon dated, I may well get a 19th Century result that some would argue means the blade was made by Kull of Solingen. But, the more I look at the blade, the more I say to myself "If a Solingen maker produced this blade in the mid-19th Century, he would be derided everywhere you look."

Edster
The grip etc. is weird. I think the pommel nut is perhaps copper alloy because a) the coloration and b) the blue oxidation present. I have seen these pommel nuts before from the side (did not look nor see passant lions on the top) but can not remember where - they are quite common I think with these strange ridge protrusions.

The grip / hilt assembly is odd but very, very strong, and I believe period (late 19th Century / early 20th) because of the pommel nut. Why would anyone regrip the sword this way retaining the pommel nut? I mean, if it is one of these rastifications people talk about, where katana blades have been "restored" to crusader period mounts, they would not have kept the pommel nut. Kaskara hilts have a tendency to be frail right? This one is not for sure.

[Jim McDougall]

Jeff, thank you so much, now I recall that blade of yours and in particular the copper inlaid cross and orb, a subject of considerable discussion back then.

After seeing Jeff's blade carrying these same markings but with a blade with different fuller it suggests these very well may be native copies of earlier blade forms and using the Kull marks. It does seem that some native stamps reflected copies of the Solingen markings well established in extant trade blades and particular makers in certain areas adopted a certain consistancy in use of marks groupings that reflected certain symbolic character.

As far as I know, Solingen trade blades, especially in these later times, did not carry copper or brass inlaid markings, but did sometimes have marks of makers or purveyors. It does seem that several types of fullering or channels were typical in native kaskara blades, and Mark's example and Jeff's carry the marks grouping with association to the Kull marks, while being of two of the fuller patterns.

Mark, it should be noted that Solingen was very much an industrial cartel that produced blades of many styles that were intended to certain markets. They were producing rapier blades for Spain and her colonies long after the narrow blade rapier had become obsolete elsewhere. The blades for many different types of sword were continued as dictated by traditions kept in place for periods long after the initial form originally had been supplanted by other influences and forms. This is very much in keeping with 'revival' type weapons in many cultures and the reason why we see anachonistic styles in many native weapons such as Egyptian style features in many African weapons; kopis and machaira style features in Indian and other forms etc.
In Solingen certain blades often carried certain inscriptions that seem to have suggested a 'brand' system for blade types to certain markets, such as 'Andrea Ferara' on the blades destined to Scottish markets; and Sahagun to certain Continental markets.
Solingen and England both procuced antiquated sickle form blades to Abyssinia into to the 1930s for thier shotels, and it does seem that a number of European produced blades of broadsword blades for native markets did come out of Solingen. It is about commerce most of all rather than current styles or fashion.

Ed, I believe that Ali Dinar,who was the last sultan of Darfur, was killed in 1916 by British forces during insurgences at that time, if that is the one you are referring to. I am not sure of others with that name were earlier.

All best regards,
Jim

[Iain]

Mark,

These blades were purely export items. They were a cheap product never intended to showcase the particular skills of the maker. They were made in this style because that is what the Sudanese market wanted.

They are in no way comparable to the military patterns and other items the same makers produced at the time, nor where they ever meant to be.

The markings, as Jim noted, were recognized in the market the blades were intended for.

If your blade has the following configuration - cross and orb at the top of the fuller on side, lion on the other, flies on the base both sides - it matches other blades from the maker.

Attached the confirmation of Peter Kull's use of the three marks.

Also a takouba with the exact same blade, only reprofiled for local tastes.

Of course you have it in hand and if you are convinced it is something else I doubt I can change your mind, but just to let you know why those of us with some long standing interest in takouba and kaskara are rather sure of what you have.

As Jim notes, the possibility of a native copy always exists, but in this case I would be quite ready to believe you've got the genuine, made for export, article.

The pommel is particularly interesting, as the Ethiopians were not adverse to using the occasional kaskara, perhaps the different hilting could indicate some usage outside the usual Sudanese sphere of influence.

All the best,

Iain

[tom hyle]

a few points
First, 19th Solingen makers' marks in my experience were usually struck, not etched, with additional decorations further out the blade etched.
The lion seems etched, the other marks seem struck.
I don't know what is meant by the idea that this is wildly different from Solingen work; I don't see it.
I don't know what is meant that the blade is "bulbous"? Is this a cross sectional reference?
As to the blade with the inlays, if there are pits showing thru from under the inlay they could be from water (etc.) penetrating beneath an incompletely sealed-down inlay, but if the pits are older than the inlay, that means that the depression the inlay is in must have already been there, yes? In any event, this is actually rather difficult to see in the photo.
The perpendicular extensions from the guard are called lagnets (in French/English)
Certainly old European blades that are thin and soft enough (and many are) will vibrate as described. Burton (19th) recomended vibrating a sword in somewhat this manner (by striking the pommel though) to see the centers of vibration and of impact.
Understand that as has been stated European trade blades for these swords were not cast-offs of the European market, but deliberately produced for the African market.
Burton cracked that Solingen seemed determined to arm the entire continent with its steel.
The recieved idea that these were based on European medieval swords seems entirely specious; what I tend to refer to as a "collectors' tale". The people who weild these call themselves Arabs, and these seem clearly descended from and related to Arab swords, including the semi Turkish style guard (it is not hollow to form a ferule like real Turkish and Persian ones, and the upper lagnet is often/usually covered by a ferule or wrapping as seen on modern Arab sabres). Medieval Arab swords were usually straight and double edged.

[Edster]

Jim, I stand corrected on Ali Dinar. Some of his swords are documented, including in the Forum. Got my "Alis" confused. I think it was Mohammad Ali of Egypt who defeated the last Fung king in 1821. I wonder if there are any documented swords from the Fung period.

Best,
Ed