Sawfish sword

fearn · 22nd July 2005, 05:01 PM

Hi Tim,

I agree with you on form following function. The major reason I question the handle design is the swelled grip, not the crescent pommel. Just for comparison's sake, Tribalarts.com has a sawfish bill sword made by the Batak (I believe), and it has a straight handle with a wrist cord.

So far as parade items.... It might be possible, but it depends pretty critically on the age of the piece. Assuming once again that it came from the Torres Islands, their history is fairly interesting. They were colonized and missionized around 1860-1870, were finally given a bit more freedom around WWI, and staged a peaceful strike/rebellion in the late 1930's.

The problem is that both of us date this weapon to around the turn of the 20th century. It's pretty obviously old, but if it was made in the Torres Islands, it was at a time when they went to Church every Sunday and the kids went to mission school. If it was less than 50 or more than 130 years old, I'd be thinking more strongly that it was native made, especially as artwork as you suggest.

Nowdays, the Torres Islanders produce some neat artwork (admittedly, I'm partial to Oceanic art in general), and my impression is that this is a post-WWII phenomenon.

This all assumes that it came from the Torres Islands. If it came from the Massim (eastern tip of PNG and related islands, including the Trobriands), then you could make a stronger argument that it was native made, although I'd still disagree

F

punal · 6th June 2006, 06:09 PM

oops! my mistake, wrong one

fearn · 2nd July 2013, 05:36 PM

Updated information on sawfishes. It looks like their conservation status is even worse than I thought.

At this point, I'd strongly suggest taking a pass on any sawfish bills you see, especially if you have to take it through customs (they're all now protected by CITES). It's too bad, but they are coast and river creatures, and there isn't a lot of space left for them anywhere. Hopefully they can be properly protected and given enough time to recover, so that our grandkids can see sawfish and those bills in something other than a museum.

F

Tim Simmons · 27th November 2015, 03:59 PM

End of.

Mercenary · 8th January 2016, 02:06 PM

I just wanted to post the image in the thread "Period Photos of People with Ethnographic Arms", but noticed that there are only photos. So I decided to put some more pictures and information.
From "Seventy two specimens of castes in India":

Mercenary · 8th January 2016, 02:11 PM

Some more images. And as I know in Italian journal in English will be published the articles of D.Miloserdov ("mahratt" on the forum) about the weapons from rostrum of sawfish in Indo-Persian region.

ariel · 9th January 2016, 12:11 AM

I guess there are three distinct groups of such "swords":

1. Genuine native examples . Those need to be treated with respect: their owners were true warriors who used the only materials available to them with imagination and dignity.

2. Scrimshaw examples made often (if not mostly) by bored sailors or beachcombers to pass time or just to enjoy the ability to fashion something pretty. Those are good examples of folk arts and crafts, with no connection to any military purpose or tradition. In the same category as trench art.

3. Pretentious mixes of true military parts ( handles mostly) and plain sawfish rostra, despite easy availability of true fighting blades. Those I would view as shameless pretenders, exotics for its own sake and ,- most likely,- touristy items. They have neither fighting purpose, nor artistic flair. Discussing them seriously is akin to pondering upon military significance of General Tso's chicken.

Mercenary · 9th January 2016, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I guess

Why guess? You have read the article in Russian. May I post your public review here? Your opinion will be very important for colleagues:

Quote:

Very good article: a detailed, sober and indisputable examples.
With respect.
Ariel

27th November 2015, 03:59 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,890	End of. Attached Images

8th January 2016, 02:06 PM	#5
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	I just wanted to post the image in the thread "Period Photos of People with Ethnographic Arms", but noticed that there are only photos. So I decided to put some more pictures and information. From "Seventy two specimens of castes in India": Attached Images

8th January 2016, 02:11 PM	#6
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 428	Some more images. And as I know in Italian journal in English will be published the articles of D.Miloserdov ("mahratt" on the forum) about the weapons from rostrum of sawfish in Indo-Persian region. Attached Images

22nd July 2005, 05:01 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, I agree with you on form following function. The major reason I question the handle design is the swelled grip, not the crescent pommel. Just for comparison's sake, Tribalarts.com has a sawfish bill sword made by the Batak (I believe), and it has a straight handle with a wrist cord. So far as parade items.... It might be possible, but it depends pretty critically on the age of the piece. Assuming once again that it came from the Torres Islands, their history is fairly interesting. They were colonized and missionized around 1860-1870, were finally given a bit more freedom around WWI, and staged a peaceful strike/rebellion in the late 1930's. The problem is that both of us date this weapon to around the turn of the 20th century. It's pretty obviously old, but if it was made in the Torres Islands, it was at a time when they went to Church every Sunday and the kids went to mission school. If it was less than 50 or more than 130 years old, I'd be thinking more strongly that it was native made, especially as artwork as you suggest. Nowdays, the Torres Islanders produce some neat artwork (admittedly, I'm partial to Oceanic art in general), and my impression is that this is a post-WWII phenomenon. This all assumes that it came from the Torres Islands. If it came from the Massim (eastern tip of PNG and related islands, including the Trobriands), then you could make a stronger argument that it was native made, although I'd still disagree F

6th June 2006, 06:09 PM	#2
punal Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 91	oops! my mistake, wrong one

2nd July 2013, 05:36 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Updated information on sawfishes. It looks like their conservation status is even worse than I thought. At this point, I'd strongly suggest taking a pass on any sawfish bills you see, especially if you have to take it through customs (they're all now protected by CITES). It's too bad, but they are coast and river creatures, and there isn't a lot of space left for them anywhere. Hopefully they can be properly protected and given enough time to recover, so that our grandkids can see sawfish and those bills in something other than a museum. F

9th January 2016, 12:11 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I guess there are three distinct groups of such "swords": 1. Genuine native examples . Those need to be treated with respect: their owners were true warriors who used the only materials available to them with imagination and dignity. 2. Scrimshaw examples made often (if not mostly) by bored sailors or beachcombers to pass time or just to enjoy the ability to fashion something pretty. Those are good examples of folk arts and crafts, with no connection to any military purpose or tradition. In the same category as trench art. 3. Pretentious mixes of true military parts ( handles mostly) and plain sawfish rostra, despite easy availability of true fighting blades. Those I would view as shameless pretenders, exotics for its own sake and ,- most likely,- touristy items. They have neither fighting purpose, nor artistic flair. Discussing them seriously is akin to pondering upon military significance of General Tso's chicken.