Sawfish sword

Tim Simmons · 22nd July 2005, 07:28 AM

I would just like to question the rather sweeping asumption that these and in saying so, many weapons made from animal parts or bone should be labelled 'sailor made or tourist trinket'. Many peoples where metal , the knowledege and equipment to make metal weapons is limited, the use of natural materials is common. All those cassowary bone knives, that shell axe post earlier in this thread and many more can all too easily be dismissed by saying 'sailor made' and all the time this statement is unsubstantiated. This is handy when you either do not Know much about or can not prove much about the material in question. The collecting world has been here before with artifacts from other lands, Africa comes to mind, also the bird knife post I made some years ago. All I know is that this came from a reputable source. Tim

fearn · 22nd July 2005, 02:20 PM

Hi Tim,

I would agree that it was made for use (as opposed to the sailor theory), if you could demonstrate that it's more than 130 years old. That's when the Torres Islands were annexed to Brittain (Torres Island History Link). I'd also be happier if there were use marks along the blade, which I don't see in the photos. As sawfishes reportedly don't regrow lost or damaged teeth, I doubt that the condition of the teeth is evidence for human use.

In PNG, most of the bone tools were phased out in the 1950s in the highlands. Along the coast, it happened much earlier. Similarly, bone and wood weapons are still used in the remotest parts of Amazonia and the Andaman Islands, but the sad fact is that advanced cultures have done a pretty good job of penetrating the rest of the globe.

While the Torres Islands weren't much visited before the 1860's, they lie directly on the major sea route between India and Australia. Assuming that's where this sword came from, they aren't in a good location to retain traditional weaponry such as you're assuming this sword is.

On the other hand, I have yet to find a sailor's carved sawfish bill, at least on the web. I'm not too surprised, given that Google is not showing this conversation when I search "sawfish sword." I'm also bugged by the "tar" on the pommel. If that is truly tar, I'd suggest that strengthens the case for it being sailor-made. The Torres strait islands don't have petroleum deposits...

F

Tim Simmons · 22nd July 2005, 03:17 PM

Hi Fearn,
I do not know if it is tar as you speak of. If ? it is a type of tar then tar substances can be obtained from the burning of vegetable matter, this is done in the Congo and used in a similar fashion. One of our German members might be able to help as I believe the best collection of PNG artifacts is in Berlin. Your arguement to me still seems centered around your interpretation of a universal handle form as european. Tim

fearn · 22nd July 2005, 03:49 PM

Hi Tim,

You're partially right, although we disagree on how universal the shape is. The other part is that I think that the bill is too young to have seen use as a weapon, and I don't see any evidence on the blade that it was used as a weapon.

F

22nd July 2005, 07:28 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I would just like to question the rather sweeping asumption that these and in saying so, many weapons made from animal parts or bone should be labelled 'sailor made or tourist trinket'. Many peoples where metal , the knowledege and equipment to make metal weapons is limited, the use of natural materials is common. All those cassowary bone knives, that shell axe post earlier in this thread and many more can all too easily be dismissed by saying 'sailor made' and all the time this statement is unsubstantiated. This is handy when you either do not Know much about or can not prove much about the material in question. The collecting world has been here before with artifacts from other lands, Africa comes to mind, also the bird knife post I made some years ago. All I know is that this came from a reputable source. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 22nd July 2005 at 01:53 PM. Reason: SPELLING!!!

22nd July 2005, 03:17 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Hi Fearn, I do not know if it is tar as you speak of. If ? it is a type of tar then tar substances can be obtained from the burning of vegetable matter, this is done in the Congo and used in a similar fashion. One of our German members might be able to help as I believe the best collection of PNG artifacts is in Berlin. Your arguement to me still seems centered around your interpretation of a universal handle form as european. Tim Last edited by Tim Simmons; 22nd July 2005 at 07:58 PM.

22nd July 2005, 02:20 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, I would agree that it was made for use (as opposed to the sailor theory), if you could demonstrate that it's more than 130 years old. That's when the Torres Islands were annexed to Brittain (Torres Island History Link). I'd also be happier if there were use marks along the blade, which I don't see in the photos. As sawfishes reportedly don't regrow lost or damaged teeth, I doubt that the condition of the teeth is evidence for human use. In PNG, most of the bone tools were phased out in the 1950s in the highlands. Along the coast, it happened much earlier. Similarly, bone and wood weapons are still used in the remotest parts of Amazonia and the Andaman Islands, but the sad fact is that advanced cultures have done a pretty good job of penetrating the rest of the globe. While the Torres Islands weren't much visited before the 1860's, they lie directly on the major sea route between India and Australia. Assuming that's where this sword came from, they aren't in a good location to retain traditional weaponry such as you're assuming this sword is. On the other hand, I have yet to find a sailor's carved sawfish bill, at least on the web. I'm not too surprised, given that Google is not showing this conversation when I search "sawfish sword." I'm also bugged by the "tar" on the pommel. If that is truly tar, I'd suggest that strengthens the case for it being sailor-made. The Torres strait islands don't have petroleum deposits... F

22nd July 2005, 03:49 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, You're partially right, although we disagree on how universal the shape is. The other part is that I think that the bill is too young to have seen use as a weapon, and I don't see any evidence on the blade that it was used as a weapon. F