Sawfish sword

Tim Simmons · 21st July 2005, 07:30 PM

I did not expect it quite so quickly, this is what 'student' had to say.

From what we currently know and accept, the species you have is 'ANOXYPRISTIS CUSPIDATA'
The distribution of this species ranges from North Indian to West Pacific, from China Sea to Northern Australia.

I do not think it is from South America, so the Torres Straits and Papuan areas look to be the most likely place of origin when added to the other information found today. I would just like to say thanks for all your help even though we have gone full circle it was most enjoyable, shame about my work

Tim

fearn · 21st July 2005, 09:10 PM

Yep, that was fun. Where did you get that great image of the Massim club?

The good news is now you have an ID from an authority and a provenance of sorts--at least for the raw material. Personally, I still think a western sailor carved it, but so long as we're cheerful about agreeing to disagree, who cares?

The other news is that Anoxypristis cuspidata is listed as "endangered" in the IUCN Red Book , so you might have import/export problems if you try to move it internationally.

Fearn

VANDOO · 21st July 2005, 10:53 PM

THE FIRST SWORD PICTURED APPEARS TO HAVE THE HANDLE SAWED OUT OF THE BASE OF THE ROSTRUM WHICH IS PROBABLY MORE LIKE ONES MADE IN PRIMATIVE SOCIETYS. THE ONES WITH WOOD HANDLES AND GAURDS ECT. ARE MOST LIKELY NAUTICAL MADE OR COPYED FROM EUROPEAN WEAPONS BY NATIVES. THERE WAS ANOTHER OLD THREAD THAT COVERED WEAPONS WITH TEETH OR BILLS FROM VARIOUS REGIONS OF THE WORLD. I THINK IT STARTED WITH THE HAWAIIAN LEI O MANO AND HAD QUITE A FEW PICTURES.
LOGICALLY LARGE BILLFISH OR SAWFISH ROSTRUMS WOULD HAVE BEEN UNUSUAL AND FEARSOME AND WOULD HAVE BEEN EASILY CONVERTED TO WEAPONS OR CEREMONIAL OBJECTS IN PRIMATIVE CULTURES SO WERE PROBABLY USED WHERE AVAILABLE.
MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN OVER THE YEARS APPEAR TO BE THE WORK OF SAILORS DURING THE TIME OF SAILING SHIPS. THEY HAD LOTS OF TIME AND TRAVELED TO MANY PORTS AND LIKED TO BRING BACK ODD THINGS FROM THEIR VOYAGES AND HAD PLENTY OF TIME TO MAKE MANY INTERESTING CRAFTS. I HAVE SOME OLD BROADBILL SWORDFISH BILLS THAT I PLAN ON FIXING UP ONE OF THESE DAYS, THEY ARE QUITE HARD SO WORKING THEM UP WILL BE SLOW EXCEPT FOR WHAT CAN BE DONE WITH A SAW.

THE STUDENT MENTIONED ARCHELOGICAL FINDS THAT WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE OF PREHISTORIC USE. SOME OTHER CLUB TYPES COULD ALSO HAVE BEEN PATTERENED AFTER THE SAWFISH BILL. THE OCEANIC ONES USING SHARK TEETH AND THE ONES IN SOUTH AMERICA USING OBSIDIAN BLADES COME TO MIND.

21st July 2005, 09:10 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Yep, that was fun. Where did you get that great image of the Massim club? The good news is now you have an ID from an authority and a provenance of sorts--at least for the raw material. Personally, I still think a western sailor carved it, but so long as we're cheerful about agreeing to disagree, who cares? The other news is that Anoxypristis cuspidata is listed as "endangered" in the IUCN Red Book , so you might have import/export problems if you try to move it internationally. Fearn Last edited by fearn; 21st July 2005 at 09:14 PM. Reason: Added info

21st July 2005, 07:30 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	I did not expect it quite so quickly, this is what 'student' had to say. From what we currently know and accept, the species you have is 'ANOXYPRISTIS CUSPIDATA' The distribution of this species ranges from North Indian to West Pacific, from China Sea to Northern Australia. I do not think it is from South America, so the Torres Straits and Papuan areas look to be the most likely place of origin when added to the other information found today. I would just like to say thanks for all your help even though we have gone full circle it was most enjoyable, shame about my work Tim

21st July 2005, 10:53 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE FIRST SWORD PICTURED APPEARS TO HAVE THE HANDLE SAWED OUT OF THE BASE OF THE ROSTRUM WHICH IS PROBABLY MORE LIKE ONES MADE IN PRIMATIVE SOCIETYS. THE ONES WITH WOOD HANDLES AND GAURDS ECT. ARE MOST LIKELY NAUTICAL MADE OR COPYED FROM EUROPEAN WEAPONS BY NATIVES. THERE WAS ANOTHER OLD THREAD THAT COVERED WEAPONS WITH TEETH OR BILLS FROM VARIOUS REGIONS OF THE WORLD. I THINK IT STARTED WITH THE HAWAIIAN LEI O MANO AND HAD QUITE A FEW PICTURES. LOGICALLY LARGE BILLFISH OR SAWFISH ROSTRUMS WOULD HAVE BEEN UNUSUAL AND FEARSOME AND WOULD HAVE BEEN EASILY CONVERTED TO WEAPONS OR CEREMONIAL OBJECTS IN PRIMATIVE CULTURES SO WERE PROBABLY USED WHERE AVAILABLE. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I HAVE PERSONALLY SEEN OVER THE YEARS APPEAR TO BE THE WORK OF SAILORS DURING THE TIME OF SAILING SHIPS. THEY HAD LOTS OF TIME AND TRAVELED TO MANY PORTS AND LIKED TO BRING BACK ODD THINGS FROM THEIR VOYAGES AND HAD PLENTY OF TIME TO MAKE MANY INTERESTING CRAFTS. I HAVE SOME OLD BROADBILL SWORDFISH BILLS THAT I PLAN ON FIXING UP ONE OF THESE DAYS, THEY ARE QUITE HARD SO WORKING THEM UP WILL BE SLOW EXCEPT FOR WHAT CAN BE DONE WITH A SAW. THE STUDENT MENTIONED ARCHELOGICAL FINDS THAT WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO START LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE OF PREHISTORIC USE. SOME OTHER CLUB TYPES COULD ALSO HAVE BEEN PATTERENED AFTER THE SAWFISH BILL. THE OCEANIC ONES USING SHARK TEETH AND THE ONES IN SOUTH AMERICA USING OBSIDIAN BLADES COME TO MIND.