BAT HILTS

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 16th July 2011, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

I had always thought the nimcha hilt portrayed a stylized horse. IMO it is important to maintain consideration for an independent evolution of form… When compared to the "business end" of an edged weapon (though itself quite diverse in appearance), the hilt is comparably wide open to artistic and stylistic interpretations and/or variations. Given the rich history of edged weaponry in many cultures, might it be possible two distinct peoples may have thad he similar idea of portraying a stylized version of two different animals in roughly the same fashion?

Salaams,
I would be the first to agree that parallel but unrelated form can accidentally occur in totally remote, unlinked, geographical groups but in this case these swords are virtually identical and there is good cause for a series of possible links. My suspicion is... The Zanzibari and Moroccan swords are directly linked to the Philippines sword by seatrade but I believe it isn't clearcut (excuse the pun) and I would like to know from where did this style of weapon originate?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ariel · 17th July 2011, 03:51 PM

Gentlemen,
Quite some time ago I posted this sword:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha

Don't you think it might be pertinent to the current discussion?

Rick · 18th July 2011, 01:53 AM

I would guess this begs the question: how many other sword hilts found in the Philippines show possible Arab influence ?

If the answer is few I would lean toward parallel development .

This is a Nimcha Hilt; I see great differences between this and the Zanzibar hilt .

Here's a link to the original discussion of this sayf; let's throw that into our cooking pot .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...enetian+nimcha

ariel · 18th July 2011, 04:52 AM

Well, the fact that only a few Phil. swords had "nimcha-like" handles does not constitute the evidence for parallel development. Just as likely, only few Phil swordmakers decided to imitate the foreign pattern. Only few Aceh swords have Gulabhati-like handles, but there is no doubt that the pattern was imitated from the Indian original, and not parallel-developed.
Mine has not only nimcha-like handle, but also nimcha -like quillons. The scabbard betrays the SE Asian manufacture.

Am I wrong?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 18th July 2011, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I would guess this begs the question: how many other sword hilts found in the Philippines show possible Arab influence ?

If the answer is few I would lean toward parallel development .

This is a Nimcha Hilt; I see great differences between this and the Zanzibar hilt .

Here's a link to the original discussion of this sayf; let's throw that into our cooking pot .

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...enetian+nimcha

Salaams, Having read your reference to the earlier forum debate on a similar subject.. I see that the Nimcha is more likely to be an Italian or Venetian weapon.(I lean toward the Venetian because of their deep involvement in slavery and thus ships). The sword at your picture may be rather unusual since it appears to have a blade attributed to English ... and its a long blade... and the hilt is altered apparently since the knuckleguard is re engineered. It may be more the sort of sword carried by Tobias Blose in my earlier letter.

Your reference is most helpful so we can dive deeper on this problem. My thought is the Moroccan and Zanzibar Nimcha are morphs of the Italian and that seatrade carried the style to Manila. The problem with that oversimplistic view is... Once into Manila, the sword could have been exported to Mexico and back to Spain and then sold on to its trading neighbor Morocco in a slightly altered format...It goes round and round but its a great discussion.

Can anyone photo line up a Morrocan Nimcha next to a Zanzibar Nimcha please?

Regards,

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Rick · 18th July 2011, 04:21 PM

I'm getting dizzy !

Yes, I think my example has been quite well repaired at some point in time; the pommel seems to have been broken in the past and there is a replacement wedge that can be seen . Therefore the brass strap to help hold it all together .

A google image search is helpful; lots of nimcha/Zanzibar sayfs to be seen .

My best,

Rick

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 19th July 2011, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I'm getting dizzy !

Yes, I think my example has been quite well repaired at some point in time; the pommel seems to have been broken in the past and there is a replacement wedge that can be seen . Therefore the brass strap to help hold it all together .

A google image search is helpful; lots of nimcha/Zanzibar sayfs to be seen .

My best,

Rick

Salaams,

I think it important that research includes google and the web... I for one have very few reference books and use the web a lot. I pressed in Zanzibar and Moroccan Nimchas and the main references pointed me back to our forum! ... Oh and to another to which many of our experts belonged way back then in about 2006. SFI did a detailed observation into Magrebi and Zanzibari Nimchas. I noted in that discussion your input and a brilliant report by Jim McDougal which in typical and precise detail gave a very informed view with references into the entire subject. In fact that report practically closed the debate however that is not the question posed by Royston at the beginning of this thread which is; I quote ~

" There has been trade between the Arab countries and S.E Asia for a long time.Does anyone else see a similarity between Nimcha hilts and the bat hilts of the Philippines ?My question is this:-Influence or Coincidence" ?

There appears to be a clear finger pointing to Italian/Venetian origins and it seems a sea-land passage via Saudia as it was then and Yemen to the Zanzibar Hub. Once there it would spiral virally to include all stations east and include the Philippines.

The confusion clouding this issue is in no one having a real outline of the difference in swords between the Zanzibar and Magrebi variants.. This should be expanded to include the Philippine weapon. Also included in the line up should be an Italian Venetian sword and your English variant. I think only then will we be able to discuss the pros and cons of this interesting question.

I caution to add that we may actually be talking about two different things... Perhaps we should be looking at it NOT as a sword ... but as a hilt....after all your blade is English and there are known to be two other blades at least ie one straight and the other curved... and what other trade blades are carried on the hilt? Ive seen an Omani Kattara 19thC trade blade on this hilt. What is the relationship to kastane Ceylonese blades? Anthony North considers quote "The kastane appears to have evolved from the Italian swords with similar guard development that likely reached these regions via Venetian trade routes".

It is still a very much open question to which input is sought from members. It could still amaze collectors to discover a whole new basis for this very important sword often claimed to be an Arabian Sword but can be argued as having Philippine or even Chinese roots. I still see it as wide open.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 20th July 2011, 09:13 AM

Salaams,

The national sword of Sri Lanka is the Kastane which appears to mimic the Nimcha. It has a much more ornate dragon like hilt which I would expect from a Sri Lankan design viewpoint.

Because of the obvious trade links between the Red Sea, Zanzibar and the Orient I decided to research Arab influence in these affected regions namely Sri Lanka and the Philppines.

Sri Lanka. What took me by surprise was the degree of Arab influence in the ethnic community make up of that country. 8 % are Moors. They seem to have arrived in the 7th to 16th C from Arabia. They were sea traders and merchants as well as farmers by nature. The first Arabs who practiced Islam arrived in Sri Lanka around the 7th–8th century, and there is evidence that there was a settled community of Arabs in Ceylon in pre-Islamic times.

Muslim merchants arrived in large numbers and some of them decided to settle in the island encouraged by the cordial treatment they received by the local rulers. Most of them lived along the coastal areas in peace and prosperity, maintaining contacts, both cultural and commercial, with Baghdad, Hadramout, Oman and other Islamic cities. (For a full account simply feed ointo the web Sri Lankan Moors and see the wikepedia details.)

The Philippines; I researched the word Moor and came up with ~Beside its usage in historical context, Moor and Moorish (Italian and Spanish: moro, French: maure, Portuguese: mouro, Romanian: maur) is used to designate an ethnic group speaking the Hassaniya Arabic dialect. They inhabit Mauritania and parts of Algeria, Western Sahara, Tunisia, Morocco, Niger and Mali. In Niger and Mali, these peoples are also known as the Azawagh Arabs, after the Azawagh region of the Sahara.[16]

In modern, colloquial Spanish, the sometimes pejorative term "Moro" refers to any Arab. Similarly, in modern, colloquial Portuguese, the term "Mouro" is primarely used as a designation for North Africans and secondarily as a derogatory and ironic term by northern Portuguese to refer to the inhabitants of the southern parts of the country (Lisbon, Alentejo and Algarve).

In the Philippines, a former Spanish colony, many residents call the local Muslim population in the Southern islands Moros. They also self-identify that way (see Muslim Filipino). The term was introduced by the Spanish colonizers. In fact Arab settlement in the Philippines is not significant and not comparable to the Sri Lanka situation simply because of geographical distance. Moro was a term used to describe Muslim Philipino people not Arabs.

For Sri Lanka; this tells us that Arab trade was set up early and was continuous with Persian and Arab merchants settled in Srilanka and that full ethnic and cultural integration was highly advanced even before the full Portuguese, Dutch and British involvement. Since sword transmission follows or is in parallel with trade we should expect some influence in weapon design.

The Nimcha. The Italian and/or Venetian sword appears as the origin of species and can be seen transmitted along the North African Medittereanean Coast in particular cloissoned versions in Algeria and other examples of a similar theme as far west as Morrocco in the Mediterranean. It seems to have been a preferred weapon of the Barbary Coast ~ Pirates.
A few swords somehow arrived in England early in the 16thC though on long English blades.

The eventual and inevitable transfer to what is now Saudia probably by caravan (or a combination of sea and land routes and because of trade and religious expeditions to Mecca would have exposed the sword style to Saudi, Yemeni and Omani (Zanzibari) patrons. Once into the Zanzibar Hub I see the inevitable spread potentially to all stations east though I suspect this happened in slow stages thus the variety of different morphs showing up today.

The further addition of European trade blades clouds an already dimly lit scenario but has to be considered.

The Sri Lankan Kastane style may have developed earlier from the Arab merchants and settlers since they were already well established by the 15th C. It is also entirely possible that the early Arab traders brought the version to Zanzibar and since they already knew the trade route to China and the Philippines perhaps there is a link.

It is always possible, however, that the Philippines weapon did in fact develop separately as a parallel but purely accidental similarity. (I see more similarity between that and the Sri Lankan Kastane than with the Nimcha.)

I cannot see any trace of transmission from Spain to Mexico to Manila to Zanzibar ~ It seems to be the other way round.. logically. Also no transmission appears between Manila to Acccupulco to Spain thus the Philippines is perhaps a bridge too far in this discussion. At the same time I believe the Tobias Blose style in Anthony Norths Islamic Arms; page 28 in 16th Century London is a hybrid.

It strikes me that The Nimcha could have transferred to different cultures in a mixed timescale possibly over 400 years to an unrelated variety of places and been locally altered restyled and changed. Then in about the 18th or early 19th Century the net effect of a blanket of trade blades has muddied the waters with cheap creations appearing in Yemeni, UAE and Omani souks. There are examples of straight and curved blades; some european; some local copies although there are a few fine Iconic Nimchas on expensive Ivory hilts, highly adorned such as the Zanzibar style and the cloissoned Algerian Nimcha and in some good Saudi examples with cross guards.

That brings from me a conclusion based upon the question quote "Does anyone else see a similarity between Nimcha hilts and the bat hilts of the Philippines" ? The question was this:-Influence or Coincidence" ?

In so far as ~ Italy/Venice, Mediterranean (Barbary Coast Algeria - Morocco), Red Sea, Saudia, Zanzibar and Sri Lanka yes for sure ...

~but in respect of The Philippines; Im not convinced about influece..but coincidence; yes.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

.

18th July 2011, 01:53 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	I would guess this begs the question: how many other sword hilts found in the Philippines show possible Arab influence ? If the answer is few I would lean toward parallel development . This is a Nimcha Hilt; I see great differences between this and the Zanzibar hilt . Here's a link to the original discussion of this sayf; let's throw that into our cooking pot . http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...enetian+nimcha Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 18th July 2011 at 02:56 AM.

18th July 2011, 04:21 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Round The World We Go I'm getting dizzy ! Yes, I think my example has been quite well repaired at some point in time; the pommel seems to have been broken in the past and there is a replacement wedge that can be seen . Therefore the brass strap to help hold it all together . A google image search is helpful; lots of nimcha/Zanzibar sayfs to be seen . My best, Rick Last edited by Rick; 18th July 2011 at 04:50 PM.

20th July 2011, 09:13 AM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Nimcha. Salaams, The national sword of Sri Lanka is the Kastane which appears to mimic the Nimcha. It has a much more ornate dragon like hilt which I would expect from a Sri Lankan design viewpoint. Because of the obvious trade links between the Red Sea, Zanzibar and the Orient I decided to research Arab influence in these affected regions namely Sri Lanka and the Philppines. Sri Lanka. What took me by surprise was the degree of Arab influence in the ethnic community make up of that country. 8 % are Moors. They seem to have arrived in the 7th to 16th C from Arabia. They were sea traders and merchants as well as farmers by nature. The first Arabs who practiced Islam arrived in Sri Lanka around the 7th–8th century, and there is evidence that there was a settled community of Arabs in Ceylon in pre-Islamic times. Muslim merchants arrived in large numbers and some of them decided to settle in the island encouraged by the cordial treatment they received by the local rulers. Most of them lived along the coastal areas in peace and prosperity, maintaining contacts, both cultural and commercial, with Baghdad, Hadramout, Oman and other Islamic cities. (For a full account simply feed ointo the web Sri Lankan Moors and see the wikepedia details.) The Philippines; I researched the word Moor and came up with ~Beside its usage in historical context, Moor and Moorish (Italian and Spanish: moro, French: maure, Portuguese: mouro, Romanian: maur) is used to designate an ethnic group speaking the Hassaniya Arabic dialect. They inhabit Mauritania and parts of Algeria, Western Sahara, Tunisia, Morocco, Niger and Mali. In Niger and Mali, these peoples are also known as the Azawagh Arabs, after the Azawagh region of the Sahara.[16] In modern, colloquial Spanish, the sometimes pejorative term "Moro" refers to any Arab. Similarly, in modern, colloquial Portuguese, the term "Mouro" is primarely used as a designation for North Africans and secondarily as a derogatory and ironic term by northern Portuguese to refer to the inhabitants of the southern parts of the country (Lisbon, Alentejo and Algarve). In the Philippines, a former Spanish colony, many residents call the local Muslim population in the Southern islands Moros. They also self-identify that way (see Muslim Filipino). The term was introduced by the Spanish colonizers. In fact Arab settlement in the Philippines is not significant and not comparable to the Sri Lanka situation simply because of geographical distance. Moro was a term used to describe Muslim Philipino people not Arabs. For Sri Lanka; this tells us that Arab trade was set up early and was continuous with Persian and Arab merchants settled in Srilanka and that full ethnic and cultural integration was highly advanced even before the full Portuguese, Dutch and British involvement. Since sword transmission follows or is in parallel with trade we should expect some influence in weapon design. The Nimcha. The Italian and/or Venetian sword appears as the origin of species and can be seen transmitted along the North African Medittereanean Coast in particular cloissoned versions in Algeria and other examples of a similar theme as far west as Morrocco in the Mediterranean. It seems to have been a preferred weapon of the Barbary Coast ~ Pirates. A few swords somehow arrived in England early in the 16thC though on long English blades. The eventual and inevitable transfer to what is now Saudia probably by caravan (or a combination of sea and land routes and because of trade and religious expeditions to Mecca would have exposed the sword style to Saudi, Yemeni and Omani (Zanzibari) patrons. Once into the Zanzibar Hub I see the inevitable spread potentially to all stations east though I suspect this happened in slow stages thus the variety of different morphs showing up today. The further addition of European trade blades clouds an already dimly lit scenario but has to be considered. The Sri Lankan Kastane style may have developed earlier from the Arab merchants and settlers since they were already well established by the 15th C. It is also entirely possible that the early Arab traders brought the version to Zanzibar and since they already knew the trade route to China and the Philippines perhaps there is a link. It is always possible, however, that the Philippines weapon did in fact develop separately as a parallel but purely accidental similarity. (I see more similarity between that and the Sri Lankan Kastane than with the Nimcha.) I cannot see any trace of transmission from Spain to Mexico to Manila to Zanzibar ~ It seems to be the other way round.. logically. Also no transmission appears between Manila to Acccupulco to Spain thus the Philippines is perhaps a bridge too far in this discussion. At the same time I believe the Tobias Blose style in Anthony Norths Islamic Arms; page 28 in 16th Century London is a hybrid. It strikes me that The Nimcha could have transferred to different cultures in a mixed timescale possibly over 400 years to an unrelated variety of places and been locally altered restyled and changed. Then in about the 18th or early 19th Century the net effect of a blanket of trade blades has muddied the waters with cheap creations appearing in Yemeni, UAE and Omani souks. There are examples of straight and curved blades; some european; some local copies although there are a few fine Iconic Nimchas on expensive Ivory hilts, highly adorned such as the Zanzibar style and the cloissoned Algerian Nimcha and in some good Saudi examples with cross guards. That brings from me a conclusion based upon the question quote "Does anyone else see a similarity between Nimcha hilts and the bat hilts of the Philippines" ? The question was this:-Influence or Coincidence" ? In so far as ~ Italy/Venice, Mediterranean (Barbary Coast Algeria - Morocco), Red Sea, Saudia, Zanzibar and Sri Lanka yes for sure ... ~but in respect of The Philippines; Im not convinced about influece..but coincidence; yes. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. . Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 20th July 2011 at 09:28 AM. Reason: text

17th July 2011, 03:51 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gentlemen, Quite some time ago I posted this sword: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha Don't you think it might be pertinent to the current discussion?

18th July 2011, 04:52 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, the fact that only a few Phil. swords had "nimcha-like" handles does not constitute the evidence for parallel development. Just as likely, only few Phil swordmakers decided to imitate the foreign pattern. Only few Aceh swords have Gulabhati-like handles, but there is no doubt that the pattern was imitated from the Indian original, and not parallel-developed. Mine has not only nimcha-like handle, but also nimcha -like quillons. The scabbard betrays the SE Asian manufacture. Am I wrong?