SCHIAVONA SWORD VARIATIONS.

tom hyle · 9th July 2011, 07:54 AM

I had posted a reply, perhaps right about as this was being forum jumped.
Jim seems to have covered about everything in it, and in greater depth and articulation, anyway; hand of fate there.
There seems to be some association in central Europe of cat's head pommels with professional soldiers.
I would think "mortuary" hilts are a close relative/ancestor of the Scottish basket hilts. Certainly not the schiavona in any direct way.
Lovely sword type, most distinct to my eye, not for the formation of the basket by 2 or more rings covered by leaflike bars that radiate from the front, as by the cat's head pommel, the long blade, and the position of the pommel within the guard.
Note the pommel is usually brass, the guard steel.
I like the pierced poison-holes in the one blade.
Lovely photos, but I do notice a thing is happening that sometimes happens, which is the showing of just the hilts.

ariel · 26th July 2012, 12:34 PM

Is this a schiavona variation? Just sold on e-bay for <$250 :-)

Enibas · 26th July 2012, 01:59 PM

The pommel of course is the cat-head's-pommel we know from the sciavona.
Your sword is conform to a type of naval weapon which was used in 17th century by mercenaries of venice.
Typical is the cat-heads-pommel, the guard and a rather short blade.

So at first we have to define, what is a sciavona variation?
Which are characteristics of the sciavona? Most important characteristics of sciavona:
1)The cat-heads-pommel (iron, brass, rarely silver or other)
2) the blade must be fit for cut
3) a basket hilt

Do you agree?

My opinioin:
In remote sense can your sword be described as Sciavona variation (Pommel, blade). Presumably this was not a weapon used by dalmatian mercenaries, who were usually as foot-soldier in the service of Venice during the 17th/18th century, but startet their mercenary career as naval figthers during the Middle ages (Boccia). Probably there were dalmatians still in the navy around 1700 and used this type, but this is bold speculated.

I think, other figthers enjoyed sciavona variations - like us

Matchlock · 26th July 2012, 03:58 PM

Hi Ben,

English auction catalogs use the expression shell-guard for the German word Stichblatt.
Durchbrochenes Stichblatt is pierced shell-guard.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 26th July 2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Is this a schiavona variation?

Maybe a one only setup (composite), instead ?

Enibas · 27th July 2012, 07:36 AM

Good morning to all.
Thank you for help with english term, Matchlock.

Fernando, of course the "naval sword" Ariel shows to us could be a composite one. The type is quickly done from old and new parts.
A final assessment of the authenticity by photo is not possible.

But the type (cat-head-pommel, shell, knuckleguard and short blade fit for cut) is not an individual case.
So I am going to view my images from the doge's palace, if there is the type in the this fantastic collection. If I find one or some, I will post it.

BerberDagger · 27th July 2012, 02:09 PM

the last exemple from ariel reply is a venetian naval sword called "Fanti del Mar" , it is a nice exemple but composite and a later exemple...
they was used by the venetian infantry troups called like the sword fanti del mar in italian , actually lagunari in Venice ( a modern military section ).

Here one of my differents exemples I had . This one with venetian arsenal mark.

fernando · 27th July 2012, 05:13 PM

Eco

Bravo, Lorenzo

.

Enibas · 27th July 2012, 05:57 PM

Now I do not have to look for an example.

Here it is!

Great piece, berber dagger. Now I am jealous.

How long is it overall?

BerberDagger · 27th July 2012, 06:26 PM

some books exemple of schiavona's , fanti del mar , schiavonesca .

26th July 2012, 12:34 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is this a schiavona variation? Just sold on e-bay for <$250 :-) Attached Images

26th July 2012, 01:59 PM	#3
Enibas Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 13	Naval sword The pommel of course is the cat-head's-pommel we know from the sciavona. Your sword is conform to a type of naval weapon which was used in 17th century by mercenaries of venice. Typical is the cat-heads-pommel, the guard and a rather short blade. So at first we have to define, what is a sciavona variation? Which are characteristics of the sciavona? Most important characteristics of sciavona: 1)The cat-heads-pommel (iron, brass, rarely silver or other) 2) the blade must be fit for cut 3) a basket hilt Do you agree? My opinioin: In remote sense can your sword be described as Sciavona variation (Pommel, blade). Presumably this was not a weapon used by dalmatian mercenaries, who were usually as foot-soldier in the service of Venice during the 17th/18th century, but startet their mercenary career as naval figthers during the Middle ages (Boccia). Probably there were dalmatians still in the navy around 1700 and used this type, but this is bold speculated. I think, other figthers enjoyed sciavona variations - like us

27th July 2012, 07:36 AM	#6
Enibas Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 13	Marriage? Good morning to all. Thank you for help with english term, Matchlock. Fernando, of course the "naval sword" Ariel shows to us could be a composite one. The type is quickly done from old and new parts. A final assessment of the authenticity by photo is not possible. But the type (cat-head-pommel, shell, knuckleguard and short blade fit for cut) is not an individual case. So I am going to view my images from the doge's palace, if there is the type in the this fantastic collection. If I find one or some, I will post it.

27th July 2012, 02:09 PM	#7
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	the last exemple from ariel reply is a venetian naval sword called "Fanti del Mar" , it is a nice exemple but composite and a later exemple... they was used by the venetian infantry troups called like the sword fanti del mar in italian , actually lagunari in Venice ( a modern military section ). Here one of my differents exemples I had . This one with venetian arsenal mark. Attached Images

27th July 2012, 05:57 PM	#9
Enibas Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 13	All righty! Now I do not have to look for an example. Here it is! Great piece, berber dagger. Now I am jealous. How long is it overall?

9th July 2011, 07:54 AM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I had posted a reply, perhaps right about as this was being forum jumped. Jim seems to have covered about everything in it, and in greater depth and articulation, anyway; hand of fate there. There seems to be some association in central Europe of cat's head pommels with professional soldiers. I would think "mortuary" hilts are a close relative/ancestor of the Scottish basket hilts. Certainly not the schiavona in any direct way. Lovely sword type, most distinct to my eye, not for the formation of the basket by 2 or more rings covered by leaflike bars that radiate from the front, as by the cat's head pommel, the long blade, and the position of the pommel within the guard. Note the pommel is usually brass, the guard steel. I like the pierced poison-holes in the one blade. Lovely photos, but I do notice a thing is happening that sometimes happens, which is the showing of just the hilts.

26th July 2012, 03:58 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Ben, English auction catalogs use the expression shell-guard for the German word Stichblatt. Durchbrochenes Stichblatt is pierced shell-guard. Best, Michael

27th July 2012, 05:13 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Eco Bravo, Lorenzo .

27th July 2012, 06:26 PM	#10
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	some books exemple of schiavona's , fanti del mar , schiavonesca . Attached Images