SCHIAVONA SWORD VARIATIONS.

Gavin Nugent · 7th July 2011, 02:03 PM

Great examples and a wonderful topic...what part of the Philippines are these from????.....seriously, I'd ask for this to be shifted to the EU forum where there is likely to be less head scratching :-P

Gav

fernando · 7th July 2011, 04:27 PM

You are quite right Barry, in that these Venetian Schiavonas are always selling for prohibited prices.
I too dream of having one

asomotif · 7th July 2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

You are quite right Barry, in that these Venetian Schiavonas are always selling for prohibited prices.
I too dream of having one

I quickly checked my collection.
Nope, no schiavonas in my cupboard.

If I where a richman, these would be on my list "to buy" together with a claymore. I like the extravagant type of handprotection.

These are indeed pretty rare.
But I am sure there must be forumite(s) who own them.
Otherwise surely there will be some info around.

Best regards,
Willem

VANDOO · 7th July 2011, 06:07 PM

STONES SAYS
"THE VENETIAN BROADSWORD OF THE 16TH CENTURY. IT HAS A BROAD, STRAIGHT BLADE WITH A VERY HEAVY ELABORATE BASKET HILT THAT COVERS THE ENTIRE HAND. THE NAME IS DERIVED FROM SCHIAVONI, HIRED SOLDIERS. THE SCOTCH BROADSWORD OF THE 17TH CENTURY AND LATER IS COPIED FROM IT. "
CAN'T ADD MUCH MORE TO THAT EXCEPT THE POMMEL IS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS A CATS HEAD DUE TO ITS SHAPE. ADDED THE LAST TWO PICTURES IN MY FILES.

Jim McDougall · 8th July 2011, 05:03 PM

This is an excellent topic Barry! and I'm really glad you posted it. Ironically, its rather a good thing that you inadvertantly posted this distinctly European topic on the Ethnographic Forum, as having it moved to the correct forum may have heightened some awareness that there IS a European Forum

It seems after years, many readers and even some members are completely unaware of the 'three' forums here, or the search and archives functions which truly serve well at providing outstanding research resources.

One of the reasons the 'schiavona' is such a great topic is due to, like many weapons, the many misperceptions about them....the fact that they are wonderfully beautiful and historic weapons not withstanding. I have been of course digging through notes to try to recapture some of this material from some years ago.

Actually the sword we know as the schiavona was popularized by its well known use by the bodyguards of the Doge of Venice, who were most often actually Dalmatian's and serving there from Venice's colonial control of Dalmatia as one of its Adriatic holdings. There has been considerable debate over the source of the term for these swords, which may derive from the earliest reference to some type of sword termed 'spada schiavonesche' (1391). In modern Italian the term 'schiavo' means slave, however it seems that 'schiavona' in earlier Venetian parlance actually pertained to 'a woman', this suggesting the feminine colloquial terming of the sword (known as the 'Queen' of weapons). This is supported by an early portrait of a lady by Titian titled "La Schiavona". The Slavonian association presumably would have called for the term for Slavic people, which is 'Slavo' in Italian, and it seems unlikely that these rather elite bodyguards would have been considered 'slaves' in any sense.

It seems the form of the schiavona is most likely derived from 14th and 15th century hilt styles from Hungary and the Balkans, which would include in many cases the distinctive 'cats head' type squared pommels. These may in some way be associated with the well known 'katzbalger' swords of German mercenaries in these times, as some schiavona type hilts in thier more developed form are known among variations of katzbalgers (Wagner, "Cut and Thrust"). The term 'cat' was a colloquial application having to do with 'fighting' in the alley cat sense, a scrapper. The Hungarian influences are well placed as the Dalmatian territories were under thier control until ceded to Venice in the 15th century with influences well emplaced.

Probably the most notorious representation of the schiavona swords were from a number of them associated with the mysterious 'Council of Ten' of Venice which are typically marked 'CX' accordingly (see "The Rapier and Smallsword 1400-1820" , A.V.B. Norman).

The developed 'trellis' style basket hilts ('gitterkorb') seem to have been fully developed by the 18th century, when these swords gained most of thier notoriety. It is important to note here that it is now generally accepted that the schiavona while having some superficial likeness to the Scottish baskethilt (often termed claymore somewhat incorrectly, these are the 'great swords'). ..there is no direct connect, particularly developmentally. This misperception was construed in the fervor of some late 19th century Scottish writers, and almost immediately contested by Lord Archibald Campbell (1899). The great arms historian Holger Jacobsen of Denmark in 1940 showed that while these are similar in appearance, there are no constructional similarities sufficient to warrant any direct connection. It has also been well proven that the Scottish basket hilt evolved primarily from North European swords of the type known as 'Sinclair Sabres' (another misnomer for another time) and actually predated most of the developed trellis hilts of the schiavona.

I do know that the schiavona, while mostly associated in developed form from latter 17th through the 18th century, was still in use traditionally as late as the Napoleonic period. I have seen one with hilt in asymmetrical trellis form, with typical 18th century backsword blade (these did become cavalry weapons as well). It is inscribed 'VIVA FERNANDO IV' and 'RE DELLE DVE SICILIE' on the blade, which is to Ferdinand I (1751-1825) who was King of the Two Sicilies (Naples & Sicily) as reconstituted at Napoleons defeat in 1815, thus placing the sword in that period. It should be noted the use of the schiavona was well known throughout Italy, Spain and the Balkans in these centuries, though primarly associated with Venice as mentioned earlier.

Like most vintage European swords, these are often expensive, however relatively affordable in many cases but it takes of course some good research and networking. I think I have photos of the schiavona I mentioned and will post as soon as located.

All best regards,
Jim

PS extremely nice photos posted Barry!!! and thank you again for bringing up the topic. Hopefully you or anyone out there who has examples of these or who is inspired to acquire one will share it here, as well as any other data or thoughts on the material I have presented.

Hotspur · 8th July 2011, 11:09 PM

Nathan Robinson has a passion for these and did a nice article.

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html

There are more examples in galleries there.

Jean Binck had also penned a short article back in 2003

http://swordforum.com/articles/ams/the-schiavona.php

Cheers

GC

VANDOO · 9th July 2011, 12:02 AM

GREAT INFO JIM AND HOTSPUR NOW I KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT THESE BEAUTIES.

STONES GLOSSARY IS STILL THE BEST OVERALL REFRENCE OVER A WIDE RANGE BUT IS SOMETIMES INCORRECT AND SELDOM GOES IN DEPTH SO LEAVES A LOT TO LEARN BUT AT LEAST POINTS US IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.
THE FEW EXAMPLES I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED OVER THE YEARS WERE ALL DOUBBLE EDGED HEAVY BROADSWORDS. LOOKING AT THE PICTURES I POSTED I SEE THE SECOND ONE DOWN TO THE LEFT IS A SINGLE EDGED EXAMPLE. THE LAST EXAMPLE TO THE BOTTOM RIGHT HAS A LIGHTER FASTER BLADE BUT I CAN'T TELL IF IT IS SINGLE OR DOUBBLE EDGED.

7th July 2011, 02:03 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	EU Great examples and a wonderful topic...what part of the Philippines are these from????.....seriously, I'd ask for this to be shifted to the EU forum where there is likely to be less head scratching :-P Gav

7th July 2011, 06:07 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	STONES SAYS "THE VENETIAN BROADSWORD OF THE 16TH CENTURY. IT HAS A BROAD, STRAIGHT BLADE WITH A VERY HEAVY ELABORATE BASKET HILT THAT COVERS THE ENTIRE HAND. THE NAME IS DERIVED FROM SCHIAVONI, HIRED SOLDIERS. THE SCOTCH BROADSWORD OF THE 17TH CENTURY AND LATER IS COPIED FROM IT. " CAN'T ADD MUCH MORE TO THAT EXCEPT THE POMMEL IS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS A CATS HEAD DUE TO ITS SHAPE. ADDED THE LAST TWO PICTURES IN MY FILES. Attached Images

8th July 2011, 05:03 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This is an excellent topic Barry! and I'm really glad you posted it. Ironically, its rather a good thing that you inadvertantly posted this distinctly European topic on the Ethnographic Forum, as having it moved to the correct forum may have heightened some awareness that there IS a European Forum It seems after years, many readers and even some members are completely unaware of the 'three' forums here, or the search and archives functions which truly serve well at providing outstanding research resources. One of the reasons the 'schiavona' is such a great topic is due to, like many weapons, the many misperceptions about them....the fact that they are wonderfully beautiful and historic weapons not withstanding. I have been of course digging through notes to try to recapture some of this material from some years ago. Actually the sword we know as the schiavona was popularized by its well known use by the bodyguards of the Doge of Venice, who were most often actually Dalmatian's and serving there from Venice's colonial control of Dalmatia as one of its Adriatic holdings. There has been considerable debate over the source of the term for these swords, which may derive from the earliest reference to some type of sword termed 'spada schiavonesche' (1391). In modern Italian the term 'schiavo' means slave, however it seems that 'schiavona' in earlier Venetian parlance actually pertained to 'a woman', this suggesting the feminine colloquial terming of the sword (known as the 'Queen' of weapons). This is supported by an early portrait of a lady by Titian titled "La Schiavona". The Slavonian association presumably would have called for the term for Slavic people, which is 'Slavo' in Italian, and it seems unlikely that these rather elite bodyguards would have been considered 'slaves' in any sense. It seems the form of the schiavona is most likely derived from 14th and 15th century hilt styles from Hungary and the Balkans, which would include in many cases the distinctive 'cats head' type squared pommels. These may in some way be associated with the well known 'katzbalger' swords of German mercenaries in these times, as some schiavona type hilts in thier more developed form are known among variations of katzbalgers (Wagner, "Cut and Thrust"). The term 'cat' was a colloquial application having to do with 'fighting' in the alley cat sense, a scrapper. The Hungarian influences are well placed as the Dalmatian territories were under thier control until ceded to Venice in the 15th century with influences well emplaced. Probably the most notorious representation of the schiavona swords were from a number of them associated with the mysterious 'Council of Ten' of Venice which are typically marked 'CX' accordingly (see "The Rapier and Smallsword 1400-1820" , A.V.B. Norman). The developed 'trellis' style basket hilts ('gitterkorb') seem to have been fully developed by the 18th century, when these swords gained most of thier notoriety. It is important to note here that it is now generally accepted that the schiavona while having some superficial likeness to the Scottish baskethilt (often termed claymore somewhat incorrectly, these are the 'great swords'). ..there is no direct connect, particularly developmentally. This misperception was construed in the fervor of some late 19th century Scottish writers, and almost immediately contested by Lord Archibald Campbell (1899). The great arms historian Holger Jacobsen of Denmark in 1940 showed that while these are similar in appearance, there are no constructional similarities sufficient to warrant any direct connection. It has also been well proven that the Scottish basket hilt evolved primarily from North European swords of the type known as 'Sinclair Sabres' (another misnomer for another time) and actually predated most of the developed trellis hilts of the schiavona. I do know that the schiavona, while mostly associated in developed form from latter 17th through the 18th century, was still in use traditionally as late as the Napoleonic period. I have seen one with hilt in asymmetrical trellis form, with typical 18th century backsword blade (these did become cavalry weapons as well). It is inscribed 'VIVA FERNANDO IV' and 'RE DELLE DVE SICILIE' on the blade, which is to Ferdinand I (1751-1825) who was King of the Two Sicilies (Naples & Sicily) as reconstituted at Napoleons defeat in 1815, thus placing the sword in that period. It should be noted the use of the schiavona was well known throughout Italy, Spain and the Balkans in these centuries, though primarly associated with Venice as mentioned earlier. Like most vintage European swords, these are often expensive, however relatively affordable in many cases but it takes of course some good research and networking. I think I have photos of the schiavona I mentioned and will post as soon as located. All best regards, Jim PS extremely nice photos posted Barry!!! and thank you again for bringing up the topic. Hopefully you or anyone out there who has examples of these or who is inspired to acquire one will share it here, as well as any other data or thoughts on the material I have presented. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th July 2011 at 07:24 PM.

7th July 2011, 04:27 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	You are quite right Barry, in that these Venetian Schiavonas are always selling for prohibited prices. I too dream of having one

8th July 2011, 11:09 PM	#6
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 514	Nathan Robinson has a passion for these and did a nice article. http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_schia.html There are more examples in galleries there. Jean Binck had also penned a short article back in 2003 http://swordforum.com/articles/ams/the-schiavona.php Cheers GC

9th July 2011, 12:02 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	GREAT INFO JIM AND HOTSPUR NOW I KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT THESE BEAUTIES. STONES GLOSSARY IS STILL THE BEST OVERALL REFRENCE OVER A WIDE RANGE BUT IS SOMETIMES INCORRECT AND SELDOM GOES IN DEPTH SO LEAVES A LOT TO LEARN BUT AT LEAST POINTS US IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. THE FEW EXAMPLES I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED OVER THE YEARS WERE ALL DOUBBLE EDGED HEAVY BROADSWORDS. LOOKING AT THE PICTURES I POSTED I SEE THE SECOND ONE DOWN TO THE LEFT IS A SINGLE EDGED EXAMPLE. THE LAST EXAMPLE TO THE BOTTOM RIGHT HAS A LIGHTER FASTER BLADE BUT I CAN'T TELL IF IT IS SINGLE OR DOUBBLE EDGED.