mamluk khanjar ??

ariel · 21st July 2005, 04:45 AM

Yes, the "cloud" motif is mentioned by Astvatsaturyan as a Chinese "chi" , typical of Ottoman Turkish decoration of ~16th century and later.
The B.I.'s sword, from Talpur family, looks like Shamshir Shikargar, a hunting sword. The retaining plate at the ricasso is interesting: it looks like Yataghan's, but on the edge side of the blade.

B.I · 21st July 2005, 08:43 AM

hi rick,
even more intriguing. professor rogers was khalilis teacher when he did his doctrate in SOAS and i believe their relationship began there. rogers knowledge is on islamic art, with a leaning towards painting. khalilis collection was not one of arms, but of islamic art with arms being an almost afterthought. when he began to compile the catalogues of his collection, he thought an arms collection needed to complete the islamic sphere, and so his collection was built up over a relatively short number of years.
david alexander, who is widely thought to be the leading academic on islamic arms, was called in to catalogue the collection and his studies into khalilis arms was just during this period. as the sword was not included in the catalogue, it seems unlikely that he would have researched it. a 13thC sabre is of great importance and so would not have been ommited.
as far as i am aware, khalili stopped compiling arms after the book was written, as the arms collection was for this purpose alone. i may be wrong but either way, i can find out in september through a meeting i have arranged.
i wonder if the sword was overlooked by alexander due to a 'spurious' date in his opinion and then taken up by someone else with more 'faith'.
i still stick with my initial opinion, but find the existance of this sword (at whatever date) intriguing enough to want to pursue it further.

another point on the seljuk blade, it is formed from a fully developed watered steel technology and shows a granular type pattern.
krill, apologies for hijacking your post and diverting it astray.

Aqtai · 21st July 2005, 11:38 AM

Thanks for all the great pictures RSWORD and B.I.

With regard to the sword of Beybars, he was such a famous figure, I'm not surprised that there are swords attributed to him. The Topqapi museum has two swords attributed to famous Mamluk Sultans: Qalawun and Muhammad ibn Qalawun, in both cases Unsal Yucel believed they were actually 16th century swords

Yucel belived that this sword however (apart from the scabbard, hilt and crossguard) is genuinely early Mamluk:

The Military Museum in Cairo has a quite a few mail shirts, shields, helmets and weapons, mostly of Ottoman origin, unfortunately the labels are unreliable at best. A lot of them have been placed on mannequins meant to represent figures from Egypt's history. For example there is a mannequin meant to represent an "Ummayyad cavalryman" wearing a kulah khud helmet!

The "reconstructions", of which there are many, are even dodgier. They owe more to the artists' imagination and preconceptions than to any historical evidence. That sword above is probably a figment of the artists imagination, although there is a slightly similar 15th century Mamluk sword in the Topqapi. I'll try and scan it for you.

B.I · 21st July 2005, 12:05 PM

hi aqtai,
the topkapi swords are a great example of judging by comparison, as apposed to inscription. i can find out more about ricks sword, given time as i would love to know who attributed the date and on what basis. its easy to judge casually, but i am sure the statement was not made lightly.

btw, a good friend got into the basement of the museum in cairo (by invitation, not a window :-) and he said there were boxes, unopened for generations. a casual browse found a crate of ottoman 'turban' helmets, long forgotten about. it makes you wonder what else lurks in the darkened corners of such places.

Aqtai · 21st July 2005, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi aqtai,
the topkapi swords are a great example of judging by comparison, as apposed to inscription. i can find out more about ricks sword, given time as i would love to know who attributed the date and on what basis. its easy to judge casually, but i am sure the statement was not made lightly.

btw, a good friend got into the basement of the museum in cairo (by invitation, not a window :-) and he said there were boxes, unopened for generations. a casual browse found a crate of ottoman 'turban' helmets, long forgotten about. it makes you wonder what else lurks in the darkened corners of such places.

[Shudder]...

I can't bear to think of all that going to waste. Ironically neither the Cairo Military Museum or the Cairo Museum of Islamic Art have a Turban helmet on show. In fact the Museum of Islamic Art has only one helmet exhibited, which is of kulah khud type.

What about the dagger above the "Sword of Beybars", is that Mamluk?

Finally here is a sword that is vaguely similar to the one the statue is holding:

21st July 2005, 04:45 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, the "cloud" motif is mentioned by Astvatsaturyan as a Chinese "chi" , typical of Ottoman Turkish decoration of ~16th century and later. The B.I.'s sword, from Talpur family, looks like Shamshir Shikargar, a hunting sword. The retaining plate at the ricasso is interesting: it looks like Yataghan's, but on the edge side of the blade.

21st July 2005, 08:43 AM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rick, even more intriguing. professor rogers was khalilis teacher when he did his doctrate in SOAS and i believe their relationship began there. rogers knowledge is on islamic art, with a leaning towards painting. khalilis collection was not one of arms, but of islamic art with arms being an almost afterthought. when he began to compile the catalogues of his collection, he thought an arms collection needed to complete the islamic sphere, and so his collection was built up over a relatively short number of years. david alexander, who is widely thought to be the leading academic on islamic arms, was called in to catalogue the collection and his studies into khalilis arms was just during this period. as the sword was not included in the catalogue, it seems unlikely that he would have researched it. a 13thC sabre is of great importance and so would not have been ommited. as far as i am aware, khalili stopped compiling arms after the book was written, as the arms collection was for this purpose alone. i may be wrong but either way, i can find out in september through a meeting i have arranged. i wonder if the sword was overlooked by alexander due to a 'spurious' date in his opinion and then taken up by someone else with more 'faith'. i still stick with my initial opinion, but find the existance of this sword (at whatever date) intriguing enough to want to pursue it further. another point on the seljuk blade, it is formed from a fully developed watered steel technology and shows a granular type pattern. krill, apologies for hijacking your post and diverting it astray.

21st July 2005, 11:38 AM	#3
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Thanks for all the great pictures RSWORD and B.I. With regard to the sword of Beybars, he was such a famous figure, I'm not surprised that there are swords attributed to him. The Topqapi museum has two swords attributed to famous Mamluk Sultans: Qalawun and Muhammad ibn Qalawun, in both cases Unsal Yucel believed they were actually 16th century swords Yucel belived that this sword however (apart from the scabbard, hilt and crossguard) is genuinely early Mamluk: The Military Museum in Cairo has a quite a few mail shirts, shields, helmets and weapons, mostly of Ottoman origin, unfortunately the labels are unreliable at best. A lot of them have been placed on mannequins meant to represent figures from Egypt's history. For example there is a mannequin meant to represent an "Ummayyad cavalryman" wearing a kulah khud helmet! The "reconstructions", of which there are many, are even dodgier. They owe more to the artists' imagination and preconceptions than to any historical evidence. That sword above is probably a figment of the artists imagination, although there is a slightly similar 15th century Mamluk sword in the Topqapi. I'll try and scan it for you.

21st July 2005, 12:05 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, the topkapi swords are a great example of judging by comparison, as apposed to inscription. i can find out more about ricks sword, given time as i would love to know who attributed the date and on what basis. its easy to judge casually, but i am sure the statement was not made lightly. btw, a good friend got into the basement of the museum in cairo (by invitation, not a window :-) and he said there were boxes, unopened for generations. a casual browse found a crate of ottoman 'turban' helmets, long forgotten about. it makes you wonder what else lurks in the darkened corners of such places.