Little SEA knife for ID

VVV · 6th July 2011, 08:33 AM

Alan,

Actually that seems to be the case world wide, you use what you have around you when you need a weapon.
I do have arit and celurit that, based on their size, seems to be made solely for fighting. But none of these have much adornment, which I find strange.
Do you have any idea why tools for harvesting coconuts and bananas are more finely finished than those used for rice?

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 6th July 2011, 09:48 AM

Michael, I have seen my servant filling in time carving floral designs into the handle of a spoon. The people we are talking about just don't think or act the way you and I do.

Why are the couple of examples you have of things that appear to be tools, ornamented?

I don't know.

I could hypothesise a dozen reasons, but the only way it is possible to know is to have been there when it was done.Maybe a possible reason could be that coconuts are only cut once in a while, so you don't really wear the tool out, it will last for a long time, thus any ornamentation is not lost after a season or two of work, as would be the case with an arit. An arit strikes tens of thousands of cuts: a knife used to cut coconuts or bananas cuts a few times and is then put away.

In Central Jawa there is a plaque of wood that is hung from a waist belt and is used to hold a coconut cutting knife. These plaques are sometimes just plain wood, but sometimes they are highly and elegantly ornamented. The plaque itself is just a simple wooden plaque, but the ornamentation can sometimes be quite fine.

Arits and celurits both come in different sizes and shapes suited to different purposes, from pruning ornamental trees and bushes, to splitting wood for firewood.

VVV · 6th July 2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...snip
I could hypothesise a dozen reasons, but the only way it is possible to know is to have been there when it was done.

Actually even that isn't sufficient to claim that you "know" something for sure and that you not just hypothesize based on input from your senses and your previous experiences of probable human behavior, reasoning etc.
But I really hate that kind of extreme reasoning (not yours but the philosophical one I exemplified above) because it is so unproductive. Somehow people manage to use their uncertain "knowledge" anyway.

Thanks for sharing your idea which I also find reasonable.
Let's see if some other forumite "know" something else about them.

Michael

Royston · 6th July 2011, 02:24 PM

Michael, I posted one of your little arits (?) back in January. At the time no definite origin was decided. Kino also had one and now it appears that both you and Atlantia also have them. They certainly get around, wherever they originated.
Alan, Interesting to see your rice knife as it is very similar to the one I have. Mine was given to me by a man in Balikpapan some time at the end of the 80's. He said it was local and I have no reason to doubt him as I cannot see an article so inexpensively made having travelled very far.

Regards
Roy

VVV · 6th July 2011, 03:03 PM

Royston, the arit is Sundanese (W Java).
I haven't seen it with your version of "upgrade" scabbard before.

Michael

Royston · 6th July 2011, 03:36 PM

Michael

I still think that these are too ornate to be a simple agricultural tool. I agree with what Alan says about ornamenting everyday work tools but these designs are usually much cruder and simpler. If I could carve like this I don't think I would be an agricultural labourer, I would be carving for a living. To me, they appear "too good" for agricultural work. None of the examples shown so far show any sign of "everyday" use. ( OK I accept that they may have been bought but not used ).
Unfortunately I cannot come up with an answer as to their use.

Roy

A. G. Maisey · 6th July 2011, 11:55 PM

Yes Michael, you are of course correct:- one cannot know something with certainty, ever.

Even if one were present at the time and place of production, and the person producing was a close friend or family member, the reason given for production could still be totally incorrect.

If one wishes to adopt this style of reasoning, there is nothing in creation that can be accepted as it appears.

In fact, we are now verging upon the philosophy of my chosen profession, so I do understand this approach reasonably well.

However --- here we are talking about objects that fall within the ambit of simple folk art. If one were a part of the relevant community, it would be reasonable to expect that one would have a clear understanding of the reasons for being of the objects we are discussing, and their ornamentation.

Roy, your thoughts are absolutely correct when applied against your own cultural and societal background:- somebody in your society who could could carve to a standard as shown in the objects being discussed here, could reasonably expect to earn a living from that skill.

However, that line of reasoning simply does not apply in Jawa, Bali, and I assume most other S.E.A. communities.

As an example. We are familiar with the hilts of Dyak and Kenyan sword hilts. These are prized items of tribal art and the prices realised for the best of them, once they move from collectors of weaponry, to collectors of tribal art, are truly astounding.

However, these hilts were carved in all cases , not by professional carvers, but by the owner of the sword and were read within the community as evidence of that man's ability to appreciate the finer things in life, demonstrating that he was not just a mindless head-taker. It demonstrated his suitability for marriage, and thus his suitability to contribute to the continuation of the group of which he was a part.

Over the years I have seen many examples of art that has been produced by ordinary people in Jawa and Bali. It seems to be an inherent ability that many people in these cultures possess, and it is not necessarily used to produce money.

Another example along the same lines. Up until a year or so ago it was possible to buy and to order very finely carved hilts from Madura. These were not cheap, but they were as good as anything I have ever seen. On my last visit I attempted to place an order for a hilt type I wanted to add to my own collection. I was told that the man who used to do these hilts had stopped working on hilt production, and had gone back to tobacco farming, because there was more money in growing tobacco than in carving hilts. He had been a farmer before he started to carve hilts, he went back to farming.

When we try to understand the how, when, where, and why of our shared interests here, we need to have a fabric against which we can measure our reasoning and conclusions, and that fabric is in most cases completely different to one we apply in everyday circumstances in the communities in which most of us live.

6th July 2011, 02:24 PM	#4
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Similarities Michael, I posted one of your little arits (?) back in January. At the time no definite origin was decided. Kino also had one and now it appears that both you and Atlantia also have them. They certainly get around, wherever they originated. Alan, Interesting to see your rice knife as it is very similar to the one I have. Mine was given to me by a man in Balikpapan some time at the end of the 80's. He said it was local and I have no reason to doubt him as I cannot see an article so inexpensively made having travelled very far. Regards Roy Attached Images

6th July 2011, 08:33 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alan, Actually that seems to be the case world wide, you use what you have around you when you need a weapon. I do have arit and celurit that, based on their size, seems to be made solely for fighting. But none of these have much adornment, which I find strange. Do you have any idea why tools for harvesting coconuts and bananas are more finely finished than those used for rice? Michael

6th July 2011, 09:48 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Michael, I have seen my servant filling in time carving floral designs into the handle of a spoon. The people we are talking about just don't think or act the way you and I do. Why are the couple of examples you have of things that appear to be tools, ornamented? I don't know. I could hypothesise a dozen reasons, but the only way it is possible to know is to have been there when it was done.Maybe a possible reason could be that coconuts are only cut once in a while, so you don't really wear the tool out, it will last for a long time, thus any ornamentation is not lost after a season or two of work, as would be the case with an arit. An arit strikes tens of thousands of cuts: a knife used to cut coconuts or bananas cuts a few times and is then put away. In Central Jawa there is a plaque of wood that is hung from a waist belt and is used to hold a coconut cutting knife. These plaques are sometimes just plain wood, but sometimes they are highly and elegantly ornamented. The plaque itself is just a simple wooden plaque, but the ornamentation can sometimes be quite fine. Arits and celurits both come in different sizes and shapes suited to different purposes, from pruning ornamental trees and bushes, to splitting wood for firewood.

6th July 2011, 03:03 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Royston, the arit is Sundanese (W Java). I haven't seen it with your version of "upgrade" scabbard before. Michael

6th July 2011, 03:36 PM	#6
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Michael I still think that these are too ornate to be a simple agricultural tool. I agree with what Alan says about ornamenting everyday work tools but these designs are usually much cruder and simpler. If I could carve like this I don't think I would be an agricultural labourer, I would be carving for a living. To me, they appear "too good" for agricultural work. None of the examples shown so far show any sign of "everyday" use. ( OK I accept that they may have been bought but not used ). Unfortunately I cannot come up with an answer as to their use. Roy

6th July 2011, 11:55 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Michael, you are of course correct:- one cannot know something with certainty, ever. Even if one were present at the time and place of production, and the person producing was a close friend or family member, the reason given for production could still be totally incorrect. If one wishes to adopt this style of reasoning, there is nothing in creation that can be accepted as it appears. In fact, we are now verging upon the philosophy of my chosen profession, so I do understand this approach reasonably well. However --- here we are talking about objects that fall within the ambit of simple folk art. If one were a part of the relevant community, it would be reasonable to expect that one would have a clear understanding of the reasons for being of the objects we are discussing, and their ornamentation. Roy, your thoughts are absolutely correct when applied against your own cultural and societal background:- somebody in your society who could could carve to a standard as shown in the objects being discussed here, could reasonably expect to earn a living from that skill. However, that line of reasoning simply does not apply in Jawa, Bali, and I assume most other S.E.A. communities. As an example. We are familiar with the hilts of Dyak and Kenyan sword hilts. These are prized items of tribal art and the prices realised for the best of them, once they move from collectors of weaponry, to collectors of tribal art, are truly astounding. However, these hilts were carved in all cases , not by professional carvers, but by the owner of the sword and were read within the community as evidence of that man's ability to appreciate the finer things in life, demonstrating that he was not just a mindless head-taker. It demonstrated his suitability for marriage, and thus his suitability to contribute to the continuation of the group of which he was a part. Over the years I have seen many examples of art that has been produced by ordinary people in Jawa and Bali. It seems to be an inherent ability that many people in these cultures possess, and it is not necessarily used to produce money. Another example along the same lines. Up until a year or so ago it was possible to buy and to order very finely carved hilts from Madura. These were not cheap, but they were as good as anything I have ever seen. On my last visit I attempted to place an order for a hilt type I wanted to add to my own collection. I was told that the man who used to do these hilts had stopped working on hilt production, and had gone back to tobacco farming, because there was more money in growing tobacco than in carving hilts. He had been a farmer before he started to carve hilts, he went back to farming. When we try to understand the how, when, where, and why of our shared interests here, we need to have a fabric against which we can measure our reasoning and conclusions, and that fabric is in most cases completely different to one we apply in everyday circumstances in the communities in which most of us live.