Little SEA knife for ID

A. G. Maisey · 5th July 2011, 11:49 PM

Michael, in respect of the three items that you have shown, I am unable to comment in specifics, because I have not ever seen any of these in a place of origin, nor in use, however, they do look rather similar to tools I have seen used for harvesting coconuts and bananas.

I myself have some items of a similar nature that have every appearance of agricultural implements, but are finely finished, and not at all like the tools that are used by farmers. I have also seen, but do not own, very much older farm tools that date back more than 100 years, these were in all respects similar to today's tools.

In Jawa, Bali and Madura, probably the implement that has been used most as a weapon is the arit, or as it is in Madura, the celurit. In any rural area you hardly ever see a farmer without one, either dangling from his hand, or stuck in the back of his waist-band. When disagreements occur, the arit is right there, and it gets used. I have seen several incidents involving use of an arit as a weapon, and in the daily newspapers in Central Jawa, incidents involving fights or assaults with an arit are common. During the purges of communists in the 1960's, in East Jawa, the common method of execution was to cut throats with a celurit. My wife witnessed this twice.

If we look at the weaponry of Jawa , what we find is that apart from the keris and the tombak, most of the other weapons can be identified as agricultural implements, either refined versions of these, or actual tools used as weapons.

Rick · 6th July 2011, 01:47 AM

I believe that Conrad in his short story Victory has one of his characters use a Korambit as his favorite weapon .

VVV · 6th July 2011, 08:33 AM

Alan,

Actually that seems to be the case world wide, you use what you have around you when you need a weapon.
I do have arit and celurit that, based on their size, seems to be made solely for fighting. But none of these have much adornment, which I find strange.
Do you have any idea why tools for harvesting coconuts and bananas are more finely finished than those used for rice?

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 6th July 2011, 09:48 AM

Michael, I have seen my servant filling in time carving floral designs into the handle of a spoon. The people we are talking about just don't think or act the way you and I do.

Why are the couple of examples you have of things that appear to be tools, ornamented?

I don't know.

I could hypothesise a dozen reasons, but the only way it is possible to know is to have been there when it was done.Maybe a possible reason could be that coconuts are only cut once in a while, so you don't really wear the tool out, it will last for a long time, thus any ornamentation is not lost after a season or two of work, as would be the case with an arit. An arit strikes tens of thousands of cuts: a knife used to cut coconuts or bananas cuts a few times and is then put away.

In Central Jawa there is a plaque of wood that is hung from a waist belt and is used to hold a coconut cutting knife. These plaques are sometimes just plain wood, but sometimes they are highly and elegantly ornamented. The plaque itself is just a simple wooden plaque, but the ornamentation can sometimes be quite fine.

Arits and celurits both come in different sizes and shapes suited to different purposes, from pruning ornamental trees and bushes, to splitting wood for firewood.

VVV · 6th July 2011, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...snip
I could hypothesise a dozen reasons, but the only way it is possible to know is to have been there when it was done.

Actually even that isn't sufficient to claim that you "know" something for sure and that you not just hypothesize based on input from your senses and your previous experiences of probable human behavior, reasoning etc.
But I really hate that kind of extreme reasoning (not yours but the philosophical one I exemplified above) because it is so unproductive. Somehow people manage to use their uncertain "knowledge" anyway.

Thanks for sharing your idea which I also find reasonable.
Let's see if some other forumite "know" something else about them.

Michael

Royston · 6th July 2011, 02:24 PM

Michael, I posted one of your little arits (?) back in January. At the time no definite origin was decided. Kino also had one and now it appears that both you and Atlantia also have them. They certainly get around, wherever they originated.
Alan, Interesting to see your rice knife as it is very similar to the one I have. Mine was given to me by a man in Balikpapan some time at the end of the 80's. He said it was local and I have no reason to doubt him as I cannot see an article so inexpensively made having travelled very far.

Regards
Roy

VVV · 6th July 2011, 03:03 PM

Royston, the arit is Sundanese (W Java).
I haven't seen it with your version of "upgrade" scabbard before.

Michael

Royston · 6th July 2011, 03:36 PM

Michael

I still think that these are too ornate to be a simple agricultural tool. I agree with what Alan says about ornamenting everyday work tools but these designs are usually much cruder and simpler. If I could carve like this I don't think I would be an agricultural labourer, I would be carving for a living. To me, they appear "too good" for agricultural work. None of the examples shown so far show any sign of "everyday" use. ( OK I accept that they may have been bought but not used ).
Unfortunately I cannot come up with an answer as to their use.

Roy

6th July 2011, 01:47 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Anectdotally .... Trivia I believe that Conrad in his short story Victory has one of his characters use a Korambit as his favorite weapon . Last edited by Rick; 6th July 2011 at 02:33 AM. Reason: Wrong weapon ...doh !

6th July 2011, 02:24 PM	#6
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Similarities Michael, I posted one of your little arits (?) back in January. At the time no definite origin was decided. Kino also had one and now it appears that both you and Atlantia also have them. They certainly get around, wherever they originated. Alan, Interesting to see your rice knife as it is very similar to the one I have. Mine was given to me by a man in Balikpapan some time at the end of the 80's. He said it was local and I have no reason to doubt him as I cannot see an article so inexpensively made having travelled very far. Regards Roy Attached Images

5th July 2011, 11:49 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Michael, in respect of the three items that you have shown, I am unable to comment in specifics, because I have not ever seen any of these in a place of origin, nor in use, however, they do look rather similar to tools I have seen used for harvesting coconuts and bananas. I myself have some items of a similar nature that have every appearance of agricultural implements, but are finely finished, and not at all like the tools that are used by farmers. I have also seen, but do not own, very much older farm tools that date back more than 100 years, these were in all respects similar to today's tools. In Jawa, Bali and Madura, probably the implement that has been used most as a weapon is the arit, or as it is in Madura, the celurit. In any rural area you hardly ever see a farmer without one, either dangling from his hand, or stuck in the back of his waist-band. When disagreements occur, the arit is right there, and it gets used. I have seen several incidents involving use of an arit as a weapon, and in the daily newspapers in Central Jawa, incidents involving fights or assaults with an arit are common. During the purges of communists in the 1960's, in East Jawa, the common method of execution was to cut throats with a celurit. My wife witnessed this twice. If we look at the weaponry of Jawa , what we find is that apart from the keris and the tombak, most of the other weapons can be identified as agricultural implements, either refined versions of these, or actual tools used as weapons.

6th July 2011, 08:33 AM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Alan, Actually that seems to be the case world wide, you use what you have around you when you need a weapon. I do have arit and celurit that, based on their size, seems to be made solely for fighting. But none of these have much adornment, which I find strange. Do you have any idea why tools for harvesting coconuts and bananas are more finely finished than those used for rice? Michael

6th July 2011, 09:48 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Michael, I have seen my servant filling in time carving floral designs into the handle of a spoon. The people we are talking about just don't think or act the way you and I do. Why are the couple of examples you have of things that appear to be tools, ornamented? I don't know. I could hypothesise a dozen reasons, but the only way it is possible to know is to have been there when it was done.Maybe a possible reason could be that coconuts are only cut once in a while, so you don't really wear the tool out, it will last for a long time, thus any ornamentation is not lost after a season or two of work, as would be the case with an arit. An arit strikes tens of thousands of cuts: a knife used to cut coconuts or bananas cuts a few times and is then put away. In Central Jawa there is a plaque of wood that is hung from a waist belt and is used to hold a coconut cutting knife. These plaques are sometimes just plain wood, but sometimes they are highly and elegantly ornamented. The plaque itself is just a simple wooden plaque, but the ornamentation can sometimes be quite fine. Arits and celurits both come in different sizes and shapes suited to different purposes, from pruning ornamental trees and bushes, to splitting wood for firewood.

6th July 2011, 03:03 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Royston, the arit is Sundanese (W Java). I haven't seen it with your version of "upgrade" scabbard before. Michael

6th July 2011, 03:36 PM	#8
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	Michael I still think that these are too ornate to be a simple agricultural tool. I agree with what Alan says about ornamenting everyday work tools but these designs are usually much cruder and simpler. If I could carve like this I don't think I would be an agricultural labourer, I would be carving for a living. To me, they appear "too good" for agricultural work. None of the examples shown so far show any sign of "everyday" use. ( OK I accept that they may have been bought but not used ). Unfortunately I cannot come up with an answer as to their use. Roy