Sea cow used for Iban hilts

David · 2nd July 2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

--non-destructively, by figuring out what bone it is (most likely rib or large vertebra) and matching it to the corresponding piece of a skeleton.

That's why you want a comparative anatomist. Paleontologists use this skill all the time, because typically, they get bits of bones from unknown organisms, and have to figure out not only what bone they have, but what the organism was and what it looked like. That's effectively the puzzle you have here.

Given that the hilt is firstly just a small part of the bone (if indeed it is bone and not antler) and then it is extensively carved i am afraid i cannot see any possibility that it could be matched to any existing whole bone for verification. Even when paleontologist work for fairly intact bones they have been know to make mistakes. I don't think there would be enough for them to work from here.

fearn · 2nd July 2011, 04:56 PM

Actually, David, you'd be surprised.

For one thing, you have both the spongy inner core (trabecular bone) and the outer dense cortical bone.

So far as I can tell, it's not carved out of a cylinder, so it's not from the middle of a long limb bone. You can see that because the hilt is curved, but the trabecular bone is only on one corner. Assuming this is a correct observation, the bone came from a bone with a more complex shape, such as the head of a thigh or the vertebra of a very large animal.

The nice thing about bones with complex shapes is that they tend to be distinctive. This means they can be identified.

Without measurements, I can't tell whether this hilt could have been made from a human thigh (my guess is not). However, if you have a bunch of bones to compare it to, you can ask whether the hilt would fit within a particular bone. By process of elimination, you can get an ID.

Additionally, there may be clues in the texture of the bone that will allow it to be identified.

Were I the person with a mystery bone hilt, I'd approach a museum and say that I'm trying to determine the identity of the bone so that I can properly document it for CITES, or some such.

It's always possible that it can't be identified. However, if there's a later question about the identity of the bone (say from customs), you can whip out a letter that says that you took it to a museum, and Dr. Bone-Genius couldn't figure out what it was, except that there's no evidence it's from a CITES covered species, and it's too old to be covered anyway.

Either way, you get something from the exercise.

Best,

F

David · 2nd July 2011, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Were I the person with a mystery bone hilt, I'd approach a museum and say that I'm trying to determine the identity of the bone so that I can properly document it for CITES, or some such.

That's not a bad approach. If i were in NYC i'd probably go to the Museum of natural history where they are likely to have both manatee skeletons AND dayak swords.

Michael, do you have a good Natural History museum nearby?

VVV · 2nd July 2011, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

snip...
Michael, do you have a good Natural History museum nearby?

Actually only a 5 minutes walk from the University. But no way I will walk around with an old head hunting sword, first among 1000's of museum visitors and then just as many at the campus. It's enough with those ninja wannabees that you read about in the newspapers now and then running around with practice iai-to and scaring people.

So I wait for the blade smith working with this material to get back to me, hopefully tomorrow or early next week, so you can read his explanation.
I had around 80+ dayak parang, all of them with patination of different kind, in the room for us to discuss. After he showed me the first one it took me about a minute to spot the second one. None of the other hilts were even close in looks.

Michael

VVV · 2nd July 2011, 11:01 PM

While writing the post above I got the response from the blade maker:

"Colours are so very typical for seacow; the yellow and the fainter brown / yellow are very typical.
The spongiosa is not as it would be with antler; this is bones spongiosa.
The quality of the reflections and polished surface is *absolutely* typical.

I will send you some pictures of hilts I made from seacow ( this was sold as "Steller´s Seacow) - made from the ribs of those animals.
Yours might be of a different species - anyway, I am absolutely sure. Of course I could be wrong, but this is my favourite bone material, and I happen to know it quite well.

I´ll be back with pictures, gimme a few days..
[...] the material I use is very very old and there are no CITES restrictions, as the Steller´s Seacow was obliterated in the 1800´s."

fearn · 3rd July 2011, 04:39 AM

Hi Michael,

I'm telling you, violin and guitar cases were just made for carrying headhunting swords, especially on campus during summer.

Better though, it sounds like you have a real expert to tell you what you have. Great news.

Best,

F

David · 3rd July 2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Actually only a 5 minutes walk from the University. But no way I will walk around with an old head hunting sword, first among 1000's of museum visitors and then just as many at the campus. It's enough with those ninja wannabees that you read about in the newspapers now and then running around with practice iai-to and scaring people.

Michael, i am not suggesting to strap the sword on and walk around with it. The mandau can be easily packaged to conceal what it is. In the proper box no one is going to know what's inside.
When i was new to collecting i once brought a Moro kris to the curator of the Metropolitan Museum of Art's armory division. This, of course, required travelling with the well wrapped kris on the very crowded NYC subway system as well as through the streets and into the museum. No one was the wiser. I called the museu first and made an appointment. The curator was very happy to meet with me and explain what i had.

VVV · 3rd July 2011, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Michael, i am not suggesting to strap the sword on and walk around with it. The mandau can be easily packaged to conceal what it is. In the proper box no one is going to know what's inside.
When i was new to collecting i once brought a Moro kris to the curator of the Metropolitan Museum of Art's armory division. This, of course, required travelling with the well wrapped kris on the very crowded NYC subway system as well as through the streets and into the museum. No one was the wiser. I called the museu first and made an appointment. The curator was very happy to meet with me and explain what i had.

David, of course I know by now how to transport swords in public areas. Actually I have two sword bags especially made for this. And when I carry more than 5 swords I use my scuba diving bag. I just don't feel like doing it because I don't doubt myself that the hilt material is different than on all my other Dayak parang.

Michael

David · 3rd July 2011, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

David, of course I know by now how to transport swords in public areas. Actually I have two sword bags especially made for this. And when I carry more than 5 swords I use my scuba diving bag. I just don't feel like doing it because I don't doubt myself that the hilt material is different than on all my other Dayak parang.

Well Michael, if that's your reasoning why didn't you say so to begin with? I'm glad you are so sure on this one and do not feel the need for the opinion of anyone with actual academic knowledge of such things. I admire your faith.

tom hyle · 7th July 2011, 01:52 AM

The porous part seems to be narrow, rather than round/wide,as at the ball of a femur. I suspect it might be a piece from the curve of a jawbone, if indeed it is not an antler. On whales the jawbone ("pan bone") is said to be the only bone suitable to carving and making of useful objects.

tom hyle · 7th July 2011, 02:02 AM

The second hilt shown seems to show some irregularities of the original substance surface, between pommel and grip, that look like those of an antler. The denseness of the porous core is more suggestive of antler than of bone to me. It looks like antler.
BTW, elk is only solid at the tips. All antlers and horns are solid at the tips, though for varying lengths.
Different types of bone can be better or worse for these uses. Sheep bone is, for instance, flaky and peely.
Cattle, camel, and jiraffe are especially favoured for traditional bone goods. No camels or giraffes on Borneo, of course.
Given the fairly immediate obviousness of digesting beef, I often speculate that the popularity of humans associating with cattle has more to do with their particularly useful hides, bones, and horns than their meat.
Point is that there's a lot more to which bone to use than availability. Bones of animals can vary similarly to bones of trees, from specie to specie.

tom hyle · 7th July 2011, 01:05 PM

Note that the porous core is not exposed at the top (ie. butt) side of the pommel hook, but only where it is carved down into its center. If this were a piece sawn from a longer bone, would this be the case? Seems like antler. Whatever it is, it seems it is pretty close to its original surface shape, and should be able to be matched up with an example. It fits up to an antler pretty well. Can we get (individual) pics of the candidate sea cow bones, with scale? Can we get a pic of a rib end? Does it have a forked or L-curved end?

3rd July 2011, 04:39 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Michael, I'm telling you, violin and guitar cases were just made for carrying headhunting swords, especially on campus during summer. Better though, it sounds like you have a real expert to tell you what you have. Great news. Best, F Last edited by fearn; 3rd July 2011 at 05:33 AM.

2nd July 2011, 04:56 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Actually, David, you'd be surprised. For one thing, you have both the spongy inner core (trabecular bone) and the outer dense cortical bone. So far as I can tell, it's not carved out of a cylinder, so it's not from the middle of a long limb bone. You can see that because the hilt is curved, but the trabecular bone is only on one corner. Assuming this is a correct observation, the bone came from a bone with a more complex shape, such as the head of a thigh or the vertebra of a very large animal. The nice thing about bones with complex shapes is that they tend to be distinctive. This means they can be identified. Without measurements, I can't tell whether this hilt could have been made from a human thigh (my guess is not). However, if you have a bunch of bones to compare it to, you can ask whether the hilt would fit within a particular bone. By process of elimination, you can get an ID. Additionally, there may be clues in the texture of the bone that will allow it to be identified. Were I the person with a mystery bone hilt, I'd approach a museum and say that I'm trying to determine the identity of the bone so that I can properly document it for CITES, or some such. It's always possible that it can't be identified. However, if there's a later question about the identity of the bone (say from customs), you can whip out a letter that says that you took it to a museum, and Dr. Bone-Genius couldn't figure out what it was, except that there's no evidence it's from a CITES covered species, and it's too old to be covered anyway. Either way, you get something from the exercise. Best, F

2nd July 2011, 11:01 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	While writing the post above I got the response from the blade maker: "Colours are so very typical for seacow; the yellow and the fainter brown / yellow are very typical. The spongiosa is not as it would be with antler; this is bones spongiosa. The quality of the reflections and polished surface is absolutely typical. I will send you some pictures of hilts I made from seacow ( this was sold as "Steller´s Seacow) - made from the ribs of those animals. Yours might be of a different species - anyway, I am absolutely sure. Of course I could be wrong, but this is my favourite bone material, and I happen to know it quite well. I´ll be back with pictures, gimme a few days.. [...] the material I use is very very old and there are no CITES restrictions, as the Steller´s Seacow was obliterated in the 1800´s."

7th July 2011, 01:52 AM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The porous part seems to be narrow, rather than round/wide,as at the ball of a femur. I suspect it might be a piece from the curve of a jawbone, if indeed it is not an antler. On whales the jawbone ("pan bone") is said to be the only bone suitable to carving and making of useful objects.

7th July 2011, 02:02 AM	#11
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	The second hilt shown seems to show some irregularities of the original substance surface, between pommel and grip, that look like those of an antler. The denseness of the porous core is more suggestive of antler than of bone to me. It looks like antler. BTW, elk is only solid at the tips. All antlers and horns are solid at the tips, though for varying lengths. Different types of bone can be better or worse for these uses. Sheep bone is, for instance, flaky and peely. Cattle, camel, and jiraffe are especially favoured for traditional bone goods. No camels or giraffes on Borneo, of course. Given the fairly immediate obviousness of digesting beef, I often speculate that the popularity of humans associating with cattle has more to do with their particularly useful hides, bones, and horns than their meat. Point is that there's a lot more to which bone to use than availability. Bones of animals can vary similarly to bones of trees, from specie to specie.

7th July 2011, 01:05 PM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Note that the porous core is not exposed at the top (ie. butt) side of the pommel hook, but only where it is carved down into its center. If this were a piece sawn from a longer bone, would this be the case? Seems like antler. Whatever it is, it seems it is pretty close to its original surface shape, and should be able to be matched up with an example. It fits up to an antler pretty well. Can we get (individual) pics of the candidate sea cow bones, with scale? Can we get a pic of a rib end? Does it have a forked or L-curved end?