Sea cow used for Iban hilts

Gavin Nugent · 1st July 2011, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Yes, I remember that old thread and I have handled the mandau IRL.
But as far as I remember later on it was discovered that it wasn't human bone ...

Michael

Michael,

What was it discovered to be? I ask as many of your hilts show a patina found on very old and well handled human bones but then the practice of head hunting was pretty quick and I am sure they didn't hang around to take other limbs...of maybe they did now and then?

Gav

Tim Simmons · 1st July 2011, 07:16 PM

Bone density might be the answer here. Dugong are not deep diving sea mammals so thier bones are more dense than whales. As they live in water they have less dense bones for buoyancy. Land mammals have heavier dense bones certainly bones big enough for sword handles will be hard and dense. So if the bone is light and spongiform it may well be Dugong. Some interesting stuff on bone to follow when an item finishes on ebay.

VVV · 1st July 2011, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Michael,

What was it discovered to be? I ask as many of your hilts show a patina found on very old and well handled human bones but then the practice of head hunting was pretty quick and I am sure they didn't hang around to take other limbs...of maybe they did now and then?

Gav

Gav, it was over 6 years ago I was offered it (May 2005 according to my files). Probably I wanted to have proof that it was human bone and didn't get it?
I just remember that we agreed on that it wasn't human bone for sure after all and I bought some other mandaus instead.

Michael

VVV · 1st July 2011, 09:13 PM

Ben, aka Dajak who posted the thread above that Gustav linked to, just mailed me.
He wrote that he later had showed the mandau to a surgeon who told him that it was human bone and might be from an arm. So maybe there is at least one mandau with a hilt made of human bone after all out there...

Michael

asomotif · 3rd July 2011, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Ben, aka Dajak who posted the thread above that Gustav linked to, just mailed me.
He wrote that he later had showed the mandau to a surgeon who told him that it was human bone and might be from an arm. So maybe there is at least one mandau with a hilt made of human bone after all out there...

Michael

I see Tim's remark has been deleted completely.
Maybe this post can be censorred too

asomotif · 3rd July 2011, 10:08 PM

Michael,

I am pretty impressed by all the theories and citations from old books and publications that you can produce on this item.

Hopefully we can see the pictures of the steller seacow bone hilts in this thread. As seeing and recognizing that material will be quite interesting.

I have one hilt in my collection that has a distinctively different colour.
Maybe your relation can take a look at the pictures of that hilt ?

Best regards,
Willem

Mytribalworld · 4th July 2011, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Michael,

I am pretty impressed by all the theories and citations from old books and publications that you can produce on this item.

Hopefully we can see the pictures of the steller seacow bone hilts in this thread. As seeing and recognizing that material will be quite interesting.

I have one hilt in my collection that has a distinctively different colour.
Maybe your relation can take a look at the pictures of that hilt ?

Best regards,
Willem

Willem, you live almost next to the Seacowbone-indificationcenter( beside de Kunsthal) ......why not ask them ?

Arjan

VVV · 4th July 2011, 05:14 PM

Isn't the Dugong ID center in Rotterdam known to be one of the best in Europe?

Michael

PS Btw, yours doesn't look like dugong (based on your pictures anyway). But it is a very nice example of one of the rare dragon hilts!

VANDOO · 1st July 2011, 10:21 PM

IT IS LIKEY THERE ARE NO CITES EMPLOYEES IN THE WORLD WHO COULD IDENTIFY A MANDAU HANDLE MADE OF SEA COW BONE AND LIKELY NONE WHO COULD EVEN IDENTIFY A COMPLETE SKULL. I WOULD THINK A LARGE RIB BONE WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE WOULD BE OF THE RIGHT SHAPE AND SIZE FOR A MANDAU HANDLE.
I COULD ID A COMPLETE SKULL BUT NOT A PIECE OF CARVED BONE, I CAN ALSO ID HUMAN BONE IF THERE IS ENOUGH OF ITS ORIGINAL SHAPE REMAINING BUT A SMALL CARVED FRAGMENT ONLY CAN BE DONE IN A LAB EQUIPPED TO DO SO. SO AS LONG AS SEA COW OR ANY OTHER FORBIDDEN ITEM IS NOT MENTIONED IT SHOUILD PASS WITH NO PROBLEMS. I WOULD BE MORE CONCERNED IN SOME COUNTRIES WITH THEFT BY POSTAL EMPLOYEES OR CUSTONS AGENTS.
THE PROBLEM IS ALL PEOPLE WORKING IN THESE TYPE JOBS ARE TRAINED TO LOOK AT ALL OF THE GENERAL POPULATION AS A GUILTY SUBSPECIES AND THE ENEMY. UNFORTUNATELY SOME PEOPLE DO FIT THIS TYPE BUT MOST DO NOT.
THIS USED NOT TO BE THE CASE AS THEY WERE JUST TRAINED TO UPHOLD THE LAWS AND SERVE THE PEOPLE BY UPHOLDING THOSE LAWS. IF A PERSON STOPPED ALONGSIDE THE ROAD AND TOOK SOME FEATHERS FROM A DEAD BIRD THAT HAPPENED TO BE AN EAGLE IN THE OLD DAYS IF A WARDEN SAW THIS HE WOULD CONFISCATE THE BIRD WARN THE PERSON ASSUMING HE WAS NOT A POACHER BUT IGNORANT OF THE LAW AND THAT WOULD LIKELY BE THE END OF IT. TODAY THE PERSON WOULD BE PROSECUTED AND FINED TO THE FULL EXTENT OF THE LAW AND WOULD LIKELY SPEND MORE TIME IN PRISON THAN A MURDER. NOT BECAUSE THEY REALLY BELIEVED HE WAS A PROFESSIONAL EAGLE POACHER OR TO SERVE THE LAW JUSTLY BUT TO MAKE AN EXTREME EXAMPLE AND SET A PRECIDENT FOR FUTURE CASES.
IN THEIR DEFENSE MOST AGENTS ARE NOT LIKE THIS EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE OFTEN EDUCATED TO BE. BUT THERE ARE AGENTS OUT THERE WHO ARE BAD APPLES AND LIKE TO USE THEIR POWER TO CAUSE PEOPLE GREIF AND IF YOU RUN AFOUL OF ONE YOU WILL BE CONSIDERED GUILTY AND BAD NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY OR DO SO EXPECT NO MERCY.
I WORKED WITH THE CURATORS OF A NATURAL HISTORY MUSEUM IN HOUSTON TEXAS AND FOUND ALL OF THEM TO BE GOOD PEOPLE AND FAIR AND REASONABLE BUT THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE.
I SENT AN ARTEFACT TO A LOCAL EXPERT AT A LOCAL COLLEGE FOR HIM TO GIVE AN OPINION ON. THE FELLOW I SENT IT WITH CAME BACK AND SAID IT WAS AN ATAL ATAL HANDLE OVER 10 THOUSAND YEARS OLD AND WAS MADE OF HUMAN BONE SO THE PROFESSOR HAD CONFISCATED IT AS PEOPLE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE HUMAN REMAINS.
IF ASKED I WOULD HAVE GLADELY DONATED IT TO THE UNIVERSITY COLLECTION BUT WHEN TREATED LIKE A LOOTER ALTHOUGH IT WAS A SURFACE FIND IN A RIVER AND WOULD HAVE BEEN DESTROYED SOON HAD I NOT FOUND IT. SO GET TO KNOW PEOPLE BEFORE YOU TRUST THEM BECAUSE CREDENTIALS AND DIPLOMAS DO NOT NECESSARLY INDICATE A GOOD MAN.
SUCH IS LIFE YA TAKES YOUR CHANCES.

( SKULLS UNLIMITED ) IN OKLAHOMA CITY HAS EXAMPLES OF SEA COW AND MANATEE AND OTHER SKELETIONS (ALL LEGAL} THEY ARE A GOOD REFRENCE
, THEY USE THEM TO MAKE GOOD REPLICAS TO SELL. THE OWNER WOULD KNOW HOW TO ID THE BONES IN THE SKELETON BUT I DON'T KNOW IF HE COULD TELL MUCH LOOKING AT A MANDAU HANDLE.? I WILL HAVE A TALK WITH HIM WHEN I GO OVER FOR A VISIT NEXT TIME. YOU CAN GOOGLE SKULLS UNLIMITED FOR A LOOK AT HIS CATALOG ON LINE IF INTERESTED.

A SPECIALIST IN SEA COW WOULD BE ONE STUDYING THE CLASS SIRENIA TO WHICH IT BELONGS ALONG WITH THE MANATEE. THE STUDY OF WHALES (CETACIANS) MAY OVERLAP SO SPECIALISTS SHOULD BE OUT THERE ESPECIALLY DUE TO THE INTREST IN THE AMERICAN MANATEE.

3rd July 2011, 10:08 PM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	Michael, I am pretty impressed by all the theories and citations from old books and publications that you can produce on this item. Hopefully we can see the pictures of the steller seacow bone hilts in this thread. As seeing and recognizing that material will be quite interesting. I have one hilt in my collection that has a distinctively different colour. Maybe your relation can take a look at the pictures of that hilt ? Best regards, Willem Attached Images

1st July 2011, 10:21 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT IS LIKEY THERE ARE NO CITES EMPLOYEES IN THE WORLD WHO COULD IDENTIFY A MANDAU HANDLE MADE OF SEA COW BONE AND LIKELY NONE WHO COULD EVEN IDENTIFY A COMPLETE SKULL. I WOULD THINK A LARGE RIB BONE WHERE IT CONNECTS TO THE SPINE WOULD BE OF THE RIGHT SHAPE AND SIZE FOR A MANDAU HANDLE. I COULD ID A COMPLETE SKULL BUT NOT A PIECE OF CARVED BONE, I CAN ALSO ID HUMAN BONE IF THERE IS ENOUGH OF ITS ORIGINAL SHAPE REMAINING BUT A SMALL CARVED FRAGMENT ONLY CAN BE DONE IN A LAB EQUIPPED TO DO SO. SO AS LONG AS SEA COW OR ANY OTHER FORBIDDEN ITEM IS NOT MENTIONED IT SHOUILD PASS WITH NO PROBLEMS. I WOULD BE MORE CONCERNED IN SOME COUNTRIES WITH THEFT BY POSTAL EMPLOYEES OR CUSTONS AGENTS. THE PROBLEM IS ALL PEOPLE WORKING IN THESE TYPE JOBS ARE TRAINED TO LOOK AT ALL OF THE GENERAL POPULATION AS A GUILTY SUBSPECIES AND THE ENEMY. UNFORTUNATELY SOME PEOPLE DO FIT THIS TYPE BUT MOST DO NOT. THIS USED NOT TO BE THE CASE AS THEY WERE JUST TRAINED TO UPHOLD THE LAWS AND SERVE THE PEOPLE BY UPHOLDING THOSE LAWS. IF A PERSON STOPPED ALONGSIDE THE ROAD AND TOOK SOME FEATHERS FROM A DEAD BIRD THAT HAPPENED TO BE AN EAGLE IN THE OLD DAYS IF A WARDEN SAW THIS HE WOULD CONFISCATE THE BIRD WARN THE PERSON ASSUMING HE WAS NOT A POACHER BUT IGNORANT OF THE LAW AND THAT WOULD LIKELY BE THE END OF IT. TODAY THE PERSON WOULD BE PROSECUTED AND FINED TO THE FULL EXTENT OF THE LAW AND WOULD LIKELY SPEND MORE TIME IN PRISON THAN A MURDER. NOT BECAUSE THEY REALLY BELIEVED HE WAS A PROFESSIONAL EAGLE POACHER OR TO SERVE THE LAW JUSTLY BUT TO MAKE AN EXTREME EXAMPLE AND SET A PRECIDENT FOR FUTURE CASES. IN THEIR DEFENSE MOST AGENTS ARE NOT LIKE THIS EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE OFTEN EDUCATED TO BE. BUT THERE ARE AGENTS OUT THERE WHO ARE BAD APPLES AND LIKE TO USE THEIR POWER TO CAUSE PEOPLE GREIF AND IF YOU RUN AFOUL OF ONE YOU WILL BE CONSIDERED GUILTY AND BAD NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY OR DO SO EXPECT NO MERCY. I WORKED WITH THE CURATORS OF A NATURAL HISTORY MUSEUM IN HOUSTON TEXAS AND FOUND ALL OF THEM TO BE GOOD PEOPLE AND FAIR AND REASONABLE BUT THAT IS NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. I SENT AN ARTEFACT TO A LOCAL EXPERT AT A LOCAL COLLEGE FOR HIM TO GIVE AN OPINION ON. THE FELLOW I SENT IT WITH CAME BACK AND SAID IT WAS AN ATAL ATAL HANDLE OVER 10 THOUSAND YEARS OLD AND WAS MADE OF HUMAN BONE SO THE PROFESSOR HAD CONFISCATED IT AS PEOPLE WERE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE HUMAN REMAINS. IF ASKED I WOULD HAVE GLADELY DONATED IT TO THE UNIVERSITY COLLECTION BUT WHEN TREATED LIKE A LOOTER ALTHOUGH IT WAS A SURFACE FIND IN A RIVER AND WOULD HAVE BEEN DESTROYED SOON HAD I NOT FOUND IT. SO GET TO KNOW PEOPLE BEFORE YOU TRUST THEM BECAUSE CREDENTIALS AND DIPLOMAS DO NOT NECESSARLY INDICATE A GOOD MAN. SUCH IS LIFE YA TAKES YOUR CHANCES. ( SKULLS UNLIMITED ) IN OKLAHOMA CITY HAS EXAMPLES OF SEA COW AND MANATEE AND OTHER SKELETIONS (ALL LEGAL} THEY ARE A GOOD REFRENCE , THEY USE THEM TO MAKE GOOD REPLICAS TO SELL. THE OWNER WOULD KNOW HOW TO ID THE BONES IN THE SKELETON BUT I DON'T KNOW IF HE COULD TELL MUCH LOOKING AT A MANDAU HANDLE.? I WILL HAVE A TALK WITH HIM WHEN I GO OVER FOR A VISIT NEXT TIME. YOU CAN GOOGLE SKULLS UNLIMITED FOR A LOOK AT HIS CATALOG ON LINE IF INTERESTED. A SPECIALIST IN SEA COW WOULD BE ONE STUDYING THE CLASS SIRENIA TO WHICH IT BELONGS ALONG WITH THE MANATEE. THE STUDY OF WHALES (CETACIANS) MAY OVERLAP SO SPECIALISTS SHOULD BE OUT THERE ESPECIALLY DUE TO THE INTREST IN THE AMERICAN MANATEE. Last edited by VANDOO; 2nd July 2011 at 02:03 AM.

1st July 2011, 07:16 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Bone density might be the answer here. Dugong are not deep diving sea mammals so thier bones are more dense than whales. As they live in water they have less dense bones for buoyancy. Land mammals have heavier dense bones certainly bones big enough for sword handles will be hard and dense. So if the bone is light and spongiform it may well be Dugong. Some interesting stuff on bone to follow when an item finishes on ebay.

1st July 2011, 09:13 PM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Ben, aka Dajak who posted the thread above that Gustav linked to, just mailed me. He wrote that he later had showed the mandau to a surgeon who told him that it was human bone and might be from an arm. So maybe there is at least one mandau with a hilt made of human bone after all out there... Michael

4th July 2011, 05:14 PM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Isn't the Dugong ID center in Rotterdam known to be one of the best in Europe? Michael PS Btw, yours doesn't look like dugong (based on your pictures anyway). But it is a very nice example of one of the rare dragon hilts!