Sea cow used for Iban hilts

fearn · 30th June 2011, 09:37 PM

It being summer, I'd suggest taking this piece to the nearest large natural history museum or major university with a large zoology department. In your country, that is (see last paragraph). What you want is someone with a dugong skeleton on hand, to compare the piece with.

The issue is that most of it is so sculpted that it will be difficult to tell if it is a dugong vertebra (top of the back) or not, without that same vertebra to compare it in three dimensions (which willl present an opportunity for some great photos, incidentally). Oddly enough, museums tend to have such skeletons around, or to know who does have them. In my experience, if they're not too busy, they also enjoy puzzles like determining the source of a bone.

I'm a little puzzled, because dugong ribs (not vertebrae) have a reputation for being unusually dense. So far as I know, they act to ballast the animals in the water. Unfortunately, it's been handled so much that non-destructive DNA sampling will simply pick up human DNA.

As for legal status, yes, dugongs are in Appendix 1 of CITES, which is the most restrictive one.

Best,

F

VANDOO · 1st July 2011, 12:45 AM

IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD PEOPLE LIVE THE WAY THEY ALWAYS HAVE IF THEY CATCH A SEA TURTLE OR SEA COW THE FAMILY EATS WELL. BUT MOSTLY THEY LIVE ON MORE SIMPLE OR BLAND FARE. I HAVE SEEN BOTH SEA TURTLE AND DUGONG SKELETONS IN TRASH HEAPS IN SEVERAL PLACES SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE.
I AM DEFINITELY FOR PROTECTING ENDANGERED SPECIES BUT I CAN'T BLAME A MAN LIVING IN A PRIMATIVE SOCIETY FOR TAKEING WHAT NATURE HAS BROUGHT HIM AND HIS ANCESTORS TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES. OFTEN THE LAW TAKES THIS INTO CONSIDERATION AND SOME TRIBES ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT AND TAKE A CERTIAN PROTECTED SPECIES IN REGULATED NUMBERS SO THE POPULATION IS NOT IMPACTED MUCH.
I DO HATE TO SEE SOMETHING USEFUL AND COOL THROWN INTO THE TRASH HEAP, OR LAYING BY THE ROADSIDE TO ROT AND WASTED BUT THATS THE LAW.

fearn · 1st July 2011, 01:08 AM

Vandoo,

I don't blame anyone for making a hilt out of a bit of bone, either, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was made before dugongs were listed as endangered species (in 2000, AFAIK).

The issue here is that, depending on the customs agents of a particular country and the amount of documentation VVV has, if this langgai tinggang crosses a border, it might get confiscated. That's the reality of living in a world where many really cool species are endangered.

The reason I mention this is that I know people in England who would love this puzzle. I'd hate to tell VVV to take this blade to them, only to have it confiscated in transit. That benefits no one, not even the remaining live dugongs.

My 0.0002 cents,

F

TimW · 1st July 2011, 08:00 AM

Interesting info. I work a lot with natural materials (antler / bone). There are numerous difefrences among species. If you look at the range of antlers: they vary from very porous (european deer) to completely dense (elk / axis / reindeer / ...). Regarding the sea cow: I have a big chunk at home / will take some pictures. Stellar sea cow is allready extincted / lots of their bones are found in norhern regions and can be used without problem.

.

VVV · 1st July 2011, 09:07 AM

Obviously this thread caught some interest so I will contact him on Sunday and ask him to join this discussion so you get his arguments directly from him.

I don't know any marin biologist myself but if there is one on the list, or a member knows one good enough, maybe you can ask him for a comment too?

Unfortunately it isn't that easy to walk around with a large head hunter sword in central Stockholm and draw the blade among 100's of people inside the natural history museum during the tourist season without getting trouble with the police.

On the use of human bones I have never seen or heard about it being used for mandau hilts, unlike skulls placed under the main pillars of the long houses. Probably because of that it doesn't match the Dayak belief system.

On transit hassles fortunately there are no customs between EU-countries (Sweden - UK). Otherwise it might be a problem even if I have never experienced it myself as I only buy blades from before the ban.

Michael

Gustav · 1st July 2011, 09:19 AM

Regarding the use of human bone for a mandau handle:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=mandau

VVV · 1st July 2011, 09:34 AM

Yes, I remember that old thread and I have handled the mandau IRL.
But as far as I remember later on it was discovered that it wasn't human bone ...

Michael

fearn · 1st July 2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I don't know any marin biologist myself but if there is one on the list, or a member knows one good enough, maybe you can ask him for a comment too?

Unfortunately it isn't that easy to walk around with a large head hunter sword in central Stockholm and draw the blade among 100's of people inside the natural history museum during the tourist season without getting trouble with the police.

Hi Michael,

A couple of points.

One is that you neither need nor want a marine biologist, since they typically work with fish (or worms, or whatever). You want an vertebrate anatomist or a paleontologist--a bone dude (or dudette). They typically work at museums, veterinary schools, and universities. Look for places with lots of nicely mounted skeletons.

With regards to carrying a blade around, I've used poster tubes to carry swords (jian), but all you need is a bag that disguises the sword's shape and makes you look harmless. Perhaps a guitar case?

Cheers,

F

David · 2nd July 2011, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

A couple of points.

One is that you neither need nor want a marine biologist, since they typically work with fish (or worms, or whatever). You want an vertebrate anatomist or a paleontologist--a bone dude (or dudette). They typically work at museums, veterinary schools, and universities. Look for places with lots of nicely mounted skeletons.

Since you found the need to comment on my suggestion i must point out that a paleontologist is in no way a "bone dude", but one who studies paleontology, the study of all prehistoric life forms, both plant and animal and their fossilized remains.
A marine biologist is involved in the study of the origins, behavior, diseases, genetics, and life processes of animals and wildlife of the marine environment. It's a big ocean and i am sure that marine biologists specialize in certain sub-categories of their field, one of which would certainly include the study of marine mammals, Sea Cow included.
A vertebrate anatomist might be helpful, but frankly i am having a hard time finding any specific information on exactly what they do...

30th June 2011, 09:37 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	It being summer, I'd suggest taking this piece to the nearest large natural history museum or major university with a large zoology department. In your country, that is (see last paragraph). What you want is someone with a dugong skeleton on hand, to compare the piece with. The issue is that most of it is so sculpted that it will be difficult to tell if it is a dugong vertebra (top of the back) or not, without that same vertebra to compare it in three dimensions (which willl present an opportunity for some great photos, incidentally). Oddly enough, museums tend to have such skeletons around, or to know who does have them. In my experience, if they're not too busy, they also enjoy puzzles like determining the source of a bone. I'm a little puzzled, because dugong ribs (not vertebrae) have a reputation for being unusually dense. So far as I know, they act to ballast the animals in the water. Unfortunately, it's been handled so much that non-destructive DNA sampling will simply pick up human DNA. As for legal status, yes, dugongs are in Appendix 1 of CITES, which is the most restrictive one. Best, F

1st July 2011, 12:45 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD PEOPLE LIVE THE WAY THEY ALWAYS HAVE IF THEY CATCH A SEA TURTLE OR SEA COW THE FAMILY EATS WELL. BUT MOSTLY THEY LIVE ON MORE SIMPLE OR BLAND FARE. I HAVE SEEN BOTH SEA TURTLE AND DUGONG SKELETONS IN TRASH HEAPS IN SEVERAL PLACES SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE. I AM DEFINITELY FOR PROTECTING ENDANGERED SPECIES BUT I CAN'T BLAME A MAN LIVING IN A PRIMATIVE SOCIETY FOR TAKEING WHAT NATURE HAS BROUGHT HIM AND HIS ANCESTORS TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES. OFTEN THE LAW TAKES THIS INTO CONSIDERATION AND SOME TRIBES ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT AND TAKE A CERTIAN PROTECTED SPECIES IN REGULATED NUMBERS SO THE POPULATION IS NOT IMPACTED MUCH. I DO HATE TO SEE SOMETHING USEFUL AND COOL THROWN INTO THE TRASH HEAP, OR LAYING BY THE ROADSIDE TO ROT AND WASTED BUT THATS THE LAW.

1st July 2011, 01:08 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Vandoo, I don't blame anyone for making a hilt out of a bit of bone, either, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was made before dugongs were listed as endangered species (in 2000, AFAIK). The issue here is that, depending on the customs agents of a particular country and the amount of documentation VVV has, if this langgai tinggang crosses a border, it might get confiscated. That's the reality of living in a world where many really cool species are endangered. The reason I mention this is that I know people in England who would love this puzzle. I'd hate to tell VVV to take this blade to them, only to have it confiscated in transit. That benefits no one, not even the remaining live dugongs. My 0.0002 cents, F

1st July 2011, 08:00 AM	#4
TimW Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 54	Interesting info. I work a lot with natural materials (antler / bone). There are numerous difefrences among species. If you look at the range of antlers: they vary from very porous (european deer) to completely dense (elk / axis / reindeer / ...). Regarding the sea cow: I have a big chunk at home / will take some pictures. Stellar sea cow is allready extincted / lots of their bones are found in norhern regions and can be used without problem. .

1st July 2011, 09:07 AM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Obviously this thread caught some interest so I will contact him on Sunday and ask him to join this discussion so you get his arguments directly from him. I don't know any marin biologist myself but if there is one on the list, or a member knows one good enough, maybe you can ask him for a comment too? Unfortunately it isn't that easy to walk around with a large head hunter sword in central Stockholm and draw the blade among 100's of people inside the natural history museum during the tourist season without getting trouble with the police. On the use of human bones I have never seen or heard about it being used for mandau hilts, unlike skulls placed under the main pillars of the long houses. Probably because of that it doesn't match the Dayak belief system. On transit hassles fortunately there are no customs between EU-countries (Sweden - UK). Otherwise it might be a problem even if I have never experienced it myself as I only buy blades from before the ban. Michael

1st July 2011, 09:19 AM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Regarding the use of human bone for a mandau handle: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=mandau

1st July 2011, 09:34 AM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes, I remember that old thread and I have handled the mandau IRL. But as far as I remember later on it was discovered that it wasn't human bone ... Michael