Nice Java Keris?

Gustav · 30th June 2011, 02:30 PM

I also have my difficulties with old Javanese keris. They mostly are worn down in a degree, which makes very difficult to appreciate them as a work of art (for an european), even if the details were good shaped in original state.

Probably the best way to learn, what are the norms of good workmanship, is to take Jensen's CD and compare it with the well preserved european examples there, detail for detail.

The gonjo looks a little bit strange to me - a replacement? Probably different material used.

GIO · 30th June 2011, 04:28 PM

The gonjo looks a little bit strange to me - a replacement? Probably different material used.[/QUOTE]

Yes, most probably a replacement: it doesn't match neither size nor pamor.

Sajen · 30th June 2011, 05:57 PM

Hello Michael,

nice keris you get there. I think that it have the dapur Carita Keprabon (11 luk, 2 lambe gajah, kembang kacang, jalen ..). I don't think that the wrongko is recent since I see wear. The very well carved hilt may be recent but is good matching. The blade shall get a new stain to see better the pamor, I think that will come out a nice wos wutah. Is the pendok from gold or gold plated?

Regards,

Detlef

Greybeard · 30th June 2011, 06:24 PM

Hello Michel

I agree with Detlef: Carita Keprabon, pamor Wos Wutah. The ganja might have been replaced. In any event, in my opinion it's a very nice keris -- congratulations!

Regards,

Heinz

Greybeard · 30th June 2011, 06:27 PM

Sorry, Michael -- I just noticed that I misspelt your name ...

Regards,

Heinz

A. G. Maisey · 30th June 2011, 11:19 PM

Michael, you have asked for opinions, and I will apologise in advance for mine. This is necessary because I look at keris in a different way to most people within the community that forms this Forum, and what I will write will not not be quite as complimentary as that which has been written by others.

I am inclined to believe that the wrongko would date from prior to WWII, but it has probably been fitted with a new pendok. I do not think that this wrongko was made specifically for this blade, but originally had a smaller blade fitted to it. The tell is that in a wrongko made for a specific blade both the buntut urang and the sirah cecak should mate perfectly to the level of the top of the wrongko, in the case of this keris that is not the case, the sirah cecak sits below the level of the top of the wrongko. The previous blade in this wrongko would have been a smaller one, because the mouth of the wrongko does not appear to have been filled. This opinion could only be confirmed by physical examination.

As we all recognise, it is difficult to classify and appraise a blade from photographs alone, however, in the case of your blade there are a few things that can be said.

This blade is in the style of Mataram, but it is not an old Mataram blade of either Senopaten or Sultan Agungan style.

The quality of the garap is only so-so, the kembang kacang is weak, there has been quite a bit of erosion take place, but the pamor is still more or less intact. If I handled this blade, I feel that I would probably classify it as Koripan.

Koripan is a blacksmith's village near Jogja, that made blades in the style of Mataram, and as commercial production. It is still functioning as a blacksmith's village and makes tools that can be found in the markets all over Central Jawa.

I would need to closely examine the blade before I would be prepared to say that the gonjo is not original. Very often a gonjo was made from a separate billet, and this was particularly the case with commercially produced blades. Similarly, in a bespoke blade, the gonjo would sometimes be made from different material, and with a different pamor, at the request of the client. To have a reasonable chance of guessing if this gonjo is a replacement or not, close physical examination would be necessary.

With keris, as with virtually all other items that are collected, the price will indicate the quality. Good keris, whether old or recent, cost good money, and in recent times have become very scarce. I have not seen a good quality sleeper in years.

However, with all that said, this remains a fair example of a Central Javanese keris in the Surakarta style.

Jean · 1st July 2011, 08:55 AM

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your thorough and interesting evaluation of this kris. Could you tell us from and until approximately which dates did the Koripan smiths manufacture such types of blades? I think that I may have a number of these blades in my collection.
Thank you and best regards
Jean

30th June 2011, 02:30 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	I also have my difficulties with old Javanese keris. They mostly are worn down in a degree, which makes very difficult to appreciate them as a work of art (for an european), even if the details were good shaped in original state. Probably the best way to learn, what are the norms of good workmanship, is to take Jensen's CD and compare it with the well preserved european examples there, detail for detail. The gonjo looks a little bit strange to me - a replacement? Probably different material used.

30th June 2011, 04:28 PM	#2
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 329	The gonjo looks a little bit strange to me - a replacement? Probably different material used.[/QUOTE] Yes, most probably a replacement: it doesn't match neither size nor pamor.

30th June 2011, 05:57 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,272	Hello Michael, nice keris you get there. I think that it have the dapur Carita Keprabon (11 luk, 2 lambe gajah, kembang kacang, jalen ..). I don't think that the wrongko is recent since I see wear. The very well carved hilt may be recent but is good matching. The blade shall get a new stain to see better the pamor, I think that will come out a nice wos wutah. Is the pendok from gold or gold plated? Regards, Detlef

30th June 2011, 06:24 PM	#4
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Hello Michel I agree with Detlef: Carita Keprabon, pamor Wos Wutah. The ganja might have been replaced. In any event, in my opinion it's a very nice keris -- congratulations! Regards, Heinz

30th June 2011, 06:27 PM	#5
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Sorry, Michael -- I just noticed that I misspelt your name ... Regards, Heinz

30th June 2011, 11:19 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Michael, you have asked for opinions, and I will apologise in advance for mine. This is necessary because I look at keris in a different way to most people within the community that forms this Forum, and what I will write will not not be quite as complimentary as that which has been written by others. I am inclined to believe that the wrongko would date from prior to WWII, but it has probably been fitted with a new pendok. I do not think that this wrongko was made specifically for this blade, but originally had a smaller blade fitted to it. The tell is that in a wrongko made for a specific blade both the buntut urang and the sirah cecak should mate perfectly to the level of the top of the wrongko, in the case of this keris that is not the case, the sirah cecak sits below the level of the top of the wrongko. The previous blade in this wrongko would have been a smaller one, because the mouth of the wrongko does not appear to have been filled. This opinion could only be confirmed by physical examination. As we all recognise, it is difficult to classify and appraise a blade from photographs alone, however, in the case of your blade there are a few things that can be said. This blade is in the style of Mataram, but it is not an old Mataram blade of either Senopaten or Sultan Agungan style. The quality of the garap is only so-so, the kembang kacang is weak, there has been quite a bit of erosion take place, but the pamor is still more or less intact. If I handled this blade, I feel that I would probably classify it as Koripan. Koripan is a blacksmith's village near Jogja, that made blades in the style of Mataram, and as commercial production. It is still functioning as a blacksmith's village and makes tools that can be found in the markets all over Central Jawa. I would need to closely examine the blade before I would be prepared to say that the gonjo is not original. Very often a gonjo was made from a separate billet, and this was particularly the case with commercially produced blades. Similarly, in a bespoke blade, the gonjo would sometimes be made from different material, and with a different pamor, at the request of the client. To have a reasonable chance of guessing if this gonjo is a replacement or not, close physical examination would be necessary. With keris, as with virtually all other items that are collected, the price will indicate the quality. Good keris, whether old or recent, cost good money, and in recent times have become very scarce. I have not seen a good quality sleeper in years. However, with all that said, this remains a fair example of a Central Javanese keris in the Surakarta style.

1st July 2011, 08:55 AM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Alan, Thank you for your thorough and interesting evaluation of this kris. Could you tell us from and until approximately which dates did the Koripan smiths manufacture such types of blades? I think that I may have a number of these blades in my collection. Thank you and best regards Jean