Sea cow used for Iban hilts

Maurice · 29th June 2011, 12:57 PM

Interesting Michael!

I noticed the different in colours of "antler" handles before, but I always thought it might be that the antler had different colours by itself?
I've seen them by very "teeth"white to very darkbrown. A friendcollector told me once that the whiter pieces have seen a lot more sun as the pieces with darker handles which probably were more used in the forests as in open area where sunlight was shining.....(but I don't know if this is true and what his source was for this statement).

Let's suppose this would be sea cow, from which part could it be than?
Is there also seen a difference in material/structure, besides of the colour?

Maurice

VVV · 29th June 2011, 01:51 PM

According to the smith that used sea cow for his knife handles it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.
If I remember him correctly it was the top part of the back bone used for the first hilt (Maybe I need to recheck this with him or let him answer directly when he is back home again in Germany tomorrow night?).

Michael

VANDOO · 29th June 2011, 02:36 PM

VERY INTERESTING!! I HAVE ALWAYS ADDED THE FACTS ON THE SIZE OF SEA COW TEETH TO ELIMINATE THE POSSIBILITY OF THEIR BEING BIG ENOUGH TO MAKE IVORY KERIS HILTS OR MOST OTHER HILTS.
USING SEA COW BONE HAS NOT COME UP BEFORE BUT AS THE ANIMAL IS LARGE AND THE BONES LARGE ENOUGH AND DENSE ENOUGH FOR USE AS MANDAU HANDLES AND OTHER ITEMS AS WELL. THE SEA COW HAS BEEN HUNTED FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND IS STILL HUNTED IN MANY AREAS. TODAY IT IS HUNTED FOR FOOD IN MOST REGIONS WHERE IT OCCURS.
SO IT IS LIKELY THE BONE COULD BE USED AS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND PERHAPS EASIER TO OBTAIN THAN DEER ANTLER FOR VILLAGES NEAR THE SEA AND RIVERS.
A LOCAL WHO HAS WORKED WITH ANTLER AND SEA COW WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BUT I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO AS ALL I HAVE STUDIED HAS BEEN FOSSILIZED. THANKS FOR THIS INTERESTING POST IT IS NEW KNOWLEGE TO ME.

Gavin Nugent · 29th June 2011, 02:41 PM

Given the nature of practices of old and the easy availability of bone, could these hilts not be Human bone

asomotif · 29th June 2011, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.

Hello Michael,

Can this smith send examples of seacow bone for comparisson ?
To me almost all bones are spongy inside. and colour can be influenced by a lot of things.
It would be interesting to know if there is a very clear difference in structure.

Ps. if he uses seacow bone, is this new or old ? aren't seacows protected species ?

Best regards,
Willem

David · 30th June 2011, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

According to the smith that used sea cow for his knife handles it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow.
If I remember him correctly it was the top part of the back bone used for the first hilt (Maybe I need to recheck this with him or let him answer directly when he is back home again in Germany tomorrow night?).

Michael

I am not denying the possibility of this, however i'm not sure that i am prepared to accept this without question based on the identification od a single smith who has used the material in his own blades. As has been mentioned, just about all bone and antler has a spongy appearance on the interior and color is very dependent upon environmental circumstance.
Now, if you can get a marine biologist to make the same ID....

fearn · 30th June 2011, 09:37 PM

It being summer, I'd suggest taking this piece to the nearest large natural history museum or major university with a large zoology department. In your country, that is (see last paragraph). What you want is someone with a dugong skeleton on hand, to compare the piece with.

The issue is that most of it is so sculpted that it will be difficult to tell if it is a dugong vertebra (top of the back) or not, without that same vertebra to compare it in three dimensions (which willl present an opportunity for some great photos, incidentally). Oddly enough, museums tend to have such skeletons around, or to know who does have them. In my experience, if they're not too busy, they also enjoy puzzles like determining the source of a bone.

I'm a little puzzled, because dugong ribs (not vertebrae) have a reputation for being unusually dense. So far as I know, they act to ballast the animals in the water. Unfortunately, it's been handled so much that non-destructive DNA sampling will simply pick up human DNA.

As for legal status, yes, dugongs are in Appendix 1 of CITES, which is the most restrictive one.

Best,

F

VANDOO · 1st July 2011, 12:45 AM

IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD PEOPLE LIVE THE WAY THEY ALWAYS HAVE IF THEY CATCH A SEA TURTLE OR SEA COW THE FAMILY EATS WELL. BUT MOSTLY THEY LIVE ON MORE SIMPLE OR BLAND FARE. I HAVE SEEN BOTH SEA TURTLE AND DUGONG SKELETONS IN TRASH HEAPS IN SEVERAL PLACES SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE.
I AM DEFINITELY FOR PROTECTING ENDANGERED SPECIES BUT I CAN'T BLAME A MAN LIVING IN A PRIMATIVE SOCIETY FOR TAKEING WHAT NATURE HAS BROUGHT HIM AND HIS ANCESTORS TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES. OFTEN THE LAW TAKES THIS INTO CONSIDERATION AND SOME TRIBES ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT AND TAKE A CERTIAN PROTECTED SPECIES IN REGULATED NUMBERS SO THE POPULATION IS NOT IMPACTED MUCH.
I DO HATE TO SEE SOMETHING USEFUL AND COOL THROWN INTO THE TRASH HEAP, OR LAYING BY THE ROADSIDE TO ROT AND WASTED BUT THATS THE LAW.

fearn · 1st July 2011, 01:08 AM

Vandoo,

I don't blame anyone for making a hilt out of a bit of bone, either, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was made before dugongs were listed as endangered species (in 2000, AFAIK).

The issue here is that, depending on the customs agents of a particular country and the amount of documentation VVV has, if this langgai tinggang crosses a border, it might get confiscated. That's the reality of living in a world where many really cool species are endangered.

The reason I mention this is that I know people in England who would love this puzzle. I'd hate to tell VVV to take this blade to them, only to have it confiscated in transit. That benefits no one, not even the remaining live dugongs.

My 0.0002 cents,

F

TimW · 1st July 2011, 08:00 AM

Interesting info. I work a lot with natural materials (antler / bone). There are numerous difefrences among species. If you look at the range of antlers: they vary from very porous (european deer) to completely dense (elk / axis / reindeer / ...). Regarding the sea cow: I have a big chunk at home / will take some pictures. Stellar sea cow is allready extincted / lots of their bones are found in norhern regions and can be used without problem.

.

29th June 2011, 02:41 PM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Given the nature Given the nature of practices of old and the easy availability of bone, could these hilts not be Human bone

29th June 2011, 12:57 PM	#1
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,456	Interesting Michael! I noticed the different in colours of "antler" handles before, but I always thought it might be that the antler had different colours by itself? I've seen them by very "teeth"white to very darkbrown. A friendcollector told me once that the whiter pieces have seen a lot more sun as the pieces with darker handles which probably were more used in the forests as in open area where sunlight was shining.....(but I don't know if this is true and what his source was for this statement). Let's suppose this would be sea cow, from which part could it be than? Is there also seen a difference in material/structure, besides of the colour? Maurice

29th June 2011, 01:51 PM	#2
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	According to the smith that used sea cow for his knife handles it's both the yellow surface layer as well as the spongy parts inside that characterize it as sea cow. If I remember him correctly it was the top part of the back bone used for the first hilt (Maybe I need to recheck this with him or let him answer directly when he is back home again in Germany tomorrow night?). Michael

29th June 2011, 02:36 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	VERY INTERESTING!! I HAVE ALWAYS ADDED THE FACTS ON THE SIZE OF SEA COW TEETH TO ELIMINATE THE POSSIBILITY OF THEIR BEING BIG ENOUGH TO MAKE IVORY KERIS HILTS OR MOST OTHER HILTS. USING SEA COW BONE HAS NOT COME UP BEFORE BUT AS THE ANIMAL IS LARGE AND THE BONES LARGE ENOUGH AND DENSE ENOUGH FOR USE AS MANDAU HANDLES AND OTHER ITEMS AS WELL. THE SEA COW HAS BEEN HUNTED FOR A VERY LONG TIME AND IS STILL HUNTED IN MANY AREAS. TODAY IT IS HUNTED FOR FOOD IN MOST REGIONS WHERE IT OCCURS. SO IT IS LIKELY THE BONE COULD BE USED AS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE AND PERHAPS EASIER TO OBTAIN THAN DEER ANTLER FOR VILLAGES NEAR THE SEA AND RIVERS. A LOCAL WHO HAS WORKED WITH ANTLER AND SEA COW WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE BUT I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO AS ALL I HAVE STUDIED HAS BEEN FOSSILIZED. THANKS FOR THIS INTERESTING POST IT IS NEW KNOWLEGE TO ME.

30th June 2011, 09:37 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	It being summer, I'd suggest taking this piece to the nearest large natural history museum or major university with a large zoology department. In your country, that is (see last paragraph). What you want is someone with a dugong skeleton on hand, to compare the piece with. The issue is that most of it is so sculpted that it will be difficult to tell if it is a dugong vertebra (top of the back) or not, without that same vertebra to compare it in three dimensions (which willl present an opportunity for some great photos, incidentally). Oddly enough, museums tend to have such skeletons around, or to know who does have them. In my experience, if they're not too busy, they also enjoy puzzles like determining the source of a bone. I'm a little puzzled, because dugong ribs (not vertebrae) have a reputation for being unusually dense. So far as I know, they act to ballast the animals in the water. Unfortunately, it's been handled so much that non-destructive DNA sampling will simply pick up human DNA. As for legal status, yes, dugongs are in Appendix 1 of CITES, which is the most restrictive one. Best, F

1st July 2011, 12:45 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IN MANY PARTS OF THE WORLD PEOPLE LIVE THE WAY THEY ALWAYS HAVE IF THEY CATCH A SEA TURTLE OR SEA COW THE FAMILY EATS WELL. BUT MOSTLY THEY LIVE ON MORE SIMPLE OR BLAND FARE. I HAVE SEEN BOTH SEA TURTLE AND DUGONG SKELETONS IN TRASH HEAPS IN SEVERAL PLACES SOME THINGS NEVER CHANGE. I AM DEFINITELY FOR PROTECTING ENDANGERED SPECIES BUT I CAN'T BLAME A MAN LIVING IN A PRIMATIVE SOCIETY FOR TAKEING WHAT NATURE HAS BROUGHT HIM AND HIS ANCESTORS TO FEED THEIR FAMILIES. OFTEN THE LAW TAKES THIS INTO CONSIDERATION AND SOME TRIBES ARE ALLOWED TO HUNT AND TAKE A CERTIAN PROTECTED SPECIES IN REGULATED NUMBERS SO THE POPULATION IS NOT IMPACTED MUCH. I DO HATE TO SEE SOMETHING USEFUL AND COOL THROWN INTO THE TRASH HEAP, OR LAYING BY THE ROADSIDE TO ROT AND WASTED BUT THATS THE LAW.

1st July 2011, 01:08 AM	#9
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Vandoo, I don't blame anyone for making a hilt out of a bit of bone, either, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was made before dugongs were listed as endangered species (in 2000, AFAIK). The issue here is that, depending on the customs agents of a particular country and the amount of documentation VVV has, if this langgai tinggang crosses a border, it might get confiscated. That's the reality of living in a world where many really cool species are endangered. The reason I mention this is that I know people in England who would love this puzzle. I'd hate to tell VVV to take this blade to them, only to have it confiscated in transit. That benefits no one, not even the remaining live dugongs. My 0.0002 cents, F

1st July 2011, 08:00 AM	#10
TimW Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 54	Interesting info. I work a lot with natural materials (antler / bone). There are numerous difefrences among species. If you look at the range of antlers: they vary from very porous (european deer) to completely dense (elk / axis / reindeer / ...). Regarding the sea cow: I have a big chunk at home / will take some pictures. Stellar sea cow is allready extincted / lots of their bones are found in norhern regions and can be used without problem. .