Moro Kris

Rick · 28th June 2011, 05:45 PM

Ron, I have a Maranao kalis with bamboo wedges fit to make the Asang tight to the blade .
That might explain any play in the fit .

David · 28th June 2011, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Ron, I have a Maranao kalis with bamboo wedges fit to make the Asang tight to the blade .
That might explain any play in the fit .

Interesting, so perhaps when the wedges deteriorate the clamp might move...

Rick · 28th June 2011, 09:47 PM

Could be the case ..

Spunjer · 28th June 2011, 10:11 PM

i really thought you were being a smartass, david. had you posted your last long post first, i prolly wouldn't have asked your "expert" opinion. that's one thing being on the internet, i can't be so sure if you were serious or not, but anyways, that's water under the bridge.
posted below was the gift from the sultan to an american reporter that i've mentioned earlier. notice the kris is something that we would see on ebay and not think twice about it.
my personal opinion on this piece? assuming the captain knew the sultan personally, perhaps when he was stationed in Jolo. the captain was eventually transferred to the 21st inf. stationed in manila, and most likely it was given to him as a parting gift. of note as well, he was permanently promoted the year before (1901). again, assuming he knew the sultan personally, this was given to him for his promotion.
regarding the asang: it is of good fit, really. i believe something heavy was placed (perhaps another sword?) next to the clip that holds the asang closest to the hilt, pushing it forward and in the process, dislodging the asang out of its place. it's really hard to explain, david, but i tell you what: july 9, i will be doing a display in dayton for some filipino MA festival. i don't have the details yet, but you are more than welcome to check it out. if you're interested, i can give you the details once i get it myself.
rick, that's actually the first time i've seen a bamboo wedge on the asang to make it fit. pretty innovative, i might add. is it just on one side???
as far as the gunong, didn't make it sound like it's a very low quality piece, per se. it's just that i'm trying to make an example of what a presentation piece could be, which in this case, a gunong (well, and a double barrel lantaka, among other things...

p.s.
the notation on the picture says:
(left) Barong; (right) kris: (center) the Sultan of Sulu's dress sword, presented to the author by his Excellency

David · 28th June 2011, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i really thought you were being a smartass, david. had you posted your last long post first, i prolly wouldn't have asked your "expert" opinion. that's one thing being on the internet, i can't be so sure if you were serious or not, but anyways, that's water under the bridge.

Ron, water under the bridge is fine with me, but i really cannot see how you could have taken any of the comments i made about your kris as less than serious. It is not my intention nor place on these fora to act as a smart-ass. If i question something it is because....well....i have questions. Let's leave it at that.

Please do keep me informed about the MA festival. I am never sure of my schedule til the last minute (the down side of freelance), but i'd love the see the kris first hand (not so much to confirm or deny, but just to see it) and perhaps even more, see you yourself because, you know, i do really actually like you even if you were being snarky with me thinking i was a smart-ass...

And just once again, it's not the quality of the silver per se that has me questioning, but rather that quality in the context of the supposed time of creation. I never doubted that lower quality pieces were not given in presentation or even piece that have no silver on them at all. So while i enjoy seeing the swords presented to the journalist it doesn't really answer my questions. Actually to my eye the kris in that photo looks rather nice, though of course, not bedecked with silver or ivory. My question was whether or not the style and quality of the silver work on your hilt looks contemporary to that time period (1902). To me it does not, but i certainly have not seen it all. Perhaps you or others have other pieces that are provenanced to that time that have similar quality and style of repousse. If so i'd love to see them here.

Battara · 29th June 2011, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps you or others have other pieces that are provenanced to that time that have similar quality and style of repousse. If so i'd love to see them here.

Your wish is my command.

This barong is from the turn of the century and from a datu who gave it to the medical officer of General Macauthur in WWII. Notice the silver work that is of a similar style to Ron's kris. It is always possible that his is newer, but I doubt it. Sulu does not make this type of work anymore as far as I know.

David · 29th June 2011, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Your wish is my command.

This barong is from the turn of the century and from a datu who gave it to the medical officer of General Macauthur in WWII. Notice the silver work that is of a similar style to Ron's kris. It is always possible that his is newer, but I doubt it. Sulu does not make this type of work anymore as far as I know.

That looks nice Jose. Forgive me for asking, but if the piece was presented in WWII isn't it possible that the work on the hilt is much later than turn of the century? Is that pommel turn of the century also because it was always my impression that this form of inlay style came much later?

David · 29th June 2011, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

That looks nice Jose. Forgive me for asking, but if the piece was presented in WWII isn't it possible that the work on the hilt is much later than turn of the century? Is that pommel turn of the century also because it was always my impression that this form of inlay style came much later?

Actually Jose, i'll answer my own question since there is a very similar Barong on page 38 in Cato's book made of kamagong wood with ivory inlay. It also has similar silver work. It is not dated, but it seems to be lumped in with other late 19th and early 20th century barongs.

Battara · 29th June 2011, 02:57 AM

Actually no. The inlay style like this goes back to the 19th century. MOP inlay comes into vogue early in the 20th century. This inlay is ivory.

The junggayan style came in the late 19th century and more or less ended in the early 20th. Narrow time period. Definitely pre-WWII. I have seen other work like this from the 19th century from Sulu, but this is the only example I have in my arsenal to match.

Battara · 28th June 2011, 11:29 PM

Good pieces given as gifts from a sultan I doubt would not be of the same value as what the datu or sultan would wear.

As far as the asang-asang is concerned, yes they are made to be tight. However, as time progresses, organic materials shrink (also depending upon the change of climate into which they are found) and so I am not totally surprised that some parts of a kris might not be as tight as originally made. Also don't forget, some later owners (me included) might play with them now and again, and if not careful may loosen parts in handling. How many times have I repaired pieces that were played with by little boys and now need restoration?

Also the style of silver work I find consistent with Sulu workmanship, even to that time period. Shrinkage and cleaning may be factors here.

Finally, I agree with David in that the gunong in question is not lower in quality but in fact a great piece with that great silver chasing work (I love good bling!

)

28th June 2011, 05:45 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Ron, I have a Maranao kalis with bamboo wedges fit to make the Asang tight to the blade . That might explain any play in the fit . Attached Images

28th June 2011, 10:11 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i really thought you were being a smartass, david. had you posted your last long post first, i prolly wouldn't have asked your "expert" opinion. that's one thing being on the internet, i can't be so sure if you were serious or not, but anyways, that's water under the bridge. posted below was the gift from the sultan to an american reporter that i've mentioned earlier. notice the kris is something that we would see on ebay and not think twice about it. my personal opinion on this piece? assuming the captain knew the sultan personally, perhaps when he was stationed in Jolo. the captain was eventually transferred to the 21st inf. stationed in manila, and most likely it was given to him as a parting gift. of note as well, he was permanently promoted the year before (1901). again, assuming he knew the sultan personally, this was given to him for his promotion. regarding the asang: it is of good fit, really. i believe something heavy was placed (perhaps another sword?) next to the clip that holds the asang closest to the hilt, pushing it forward and in the process, dislodging the asang out of its place. it's really hard to explain, david, but i tell you what: july 9, i will be doing a display in dayton for some filipino MA festival. i don't have the details yet, but you are more than welcome to check it out. if you're interested, i can give you the details once i get it myself. rick, that's actually the first time i've seen a bamboo wedge on the asang to make it fit. pretty innovative, i might add. is it just on one side??? as far as the gunong, didn't make it sound like it's a very low quality piece, per se. it's just that i'm trying to make an example of what a presentation piece could be, which in this case, a gunong (well, and a double barrel lantaka, among other things... p.s. the notation on the picture says: (left) Barong; (right) kris: (center) the Sultan of Sulu's dress sword, presented to the author by his Excellency Attached Images

28th June 2011, 09:47 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Could be the case ..

29th June 2011, 02:57 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Actually no. The inlay style like this goes back to the 19th century. MOP inlay comes into vogue early in the 20th century. This inlay is ivory. The junggayan style came in the late 19th century and more or less ended in the early 20th. Narrow time period. Definitely pre-WWII. I have seen other work like this from the 19th century from Sulu, but this is the only example I have in my arsenal to match.

28th June 2011, 11:29 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Good pieces given as gifts from a sultan I doubt would not be of the same value as what the datu or sultan would wear. As far as the asang-asang is concerned, yes they are made to be tight. However, as time progresses, organic materials shrink (also depending upon the change of climate into which they are found) and so I am not totally surprised that some parts of a kris might not be as tight as originally made. Also don't forget, some later owners (me included) might play with them now and again, and if not careful may loosen parts in handling. How many times have I repaired pieces that were played with by little boys and now need restoration? Also the style of silver work I find consistent with Sulu workmanship, even to that time period. Shrinkage and cleaning may be factors here. Finally, I agree with David in that the gunong in question is not lower in quality but in fact a great piece with that great silver chasing work (I love good bling! )