Odd or traditional selut for a Donoriko?

[VVV]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

...snip

So, I guess the question is:- are selut of this type a correct and original part of Madura keris dress?

Based upon what I know, and upon what I have seen, it is my opinion that they are something intended to facilitate sale to people from outside the Madura community.

Thanks Alan!

That was what I was curious about, if it was a custom for locals or not to upgrade with this kind of selut. Somehow I suspected, after being exposed to this combination all over the world, that it was somebody close to the origin who did these upgrades, and not for instance a European dealer. Probably he wasn't the only one with this idea either based on how the market functions...

Michael

PS Jean, I agree on the fitting etc. but that wasn't my aim for this thread.

[sirek]

Now it is clear to me why a selut with Javanese / bali influences placed on a keris from Madura.

I found it a bit strange, because most people want to keep their keris original, so why add something to it?

thanks for the explanation

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by sirek

I found it a bit strange, because most people want to keep their keris original, so why add something to it?

Pfew ! with all respect for your very noble vision.
My feeling is that most western collectors want to pimp their keris to let it look like something it is not.

That the same thing is done in Indonesia does not surprise me.

Best regards,
Willem

[A. G. Maisey]

Michael, from what I've seen of it, in general, European and other dealers from outside keris bearing cultures will mix anything with anything, either to make a saleable keris, or to make an existing keris easier to sell.

Within Indonesia incorrect components will also be mixed, but usually not stupidly mixed, for instance, a Madura or North Coast hilt might be put on a Solo wrongko, but most dealers I know are pretty restrained with their variations.

The danger in Indonesia, or more specifically Central Jawa, is the deliberate forgery and that generally will not affect collectors from outside Indonesia because only Indonesian collectors know sufficient and pay enough to get taken in.

The bigger danger for outside collectors is outright misrepresentation. Every single Indonesian dealer of whom I am aware, and who has sold into the western world, has indulged in misrepresentation, sometimes involving relatively heavy money, and always very obvious to somebody with a sufficient level of knowledge. On the ground in Indonesia, it can get much worse. Western collectors in Jawa are like goldfish swimming with sharks.

[VVV]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Michael, from what I've seen of it, in general, European and other dealers from outside keris bearing cultures will mix anything with anything, either to make a saleable keris, or to make an existing keris easier to sell.
snip...

Amen to that!

Michael

[VVV]

I found these pictures from Leiden's exhibition at Lorenz' site and was puzzled to see the pimped selut - donoriko combination again.
But this time it is with date and provenance.
Maybe this, less kitchy, selut was the inspiration for the later "upgrades"?

Michael

[A. G. Maisey]

In the museum section of the Mangkunegaraan in Solo there is a case with perhaps 6 or 8 of this type of dagger along with some other very fine weapons. You cannot photograph them, and you can only enter this section of the Mangkunegaraan with a guide in close attendance, I mean at your elbow the entire time. None of these daggers have hilts that look like the one in post #9, the usage shown in post #9 is neither fish nor fowl, it is a dagger type that is found in the Mangkunegaraan, but it is fitted with a Madurese keris hilt, altered to make a pleasing ensemble for a European.

The Central Javanese rulers were not above a bit of mixing and matching if they were trying to create a prestigious gift. This hilt no more belongs on a Central Javanese piece than wings belong on pigs, but the attitude was, and is:- whites don't know anything, so give them what they want, and we know they like nicely carved ivory. This hilt is a keris hilt and is incorrect for this type of dagger, but that doesn't matter:- it was prepared for a European, the objective was to please the white man, not to prepare something that was culturally correct.

The example prepared by the Mangkunegara as a gift for a European is no more an authentic Madurese usage than are the seluts of remarkably poor quality that are in the previous photos, but it is of very much higher quality. The Mangkunegara is the minor prince of Surakarta.

Attached are a couple of pics of Madura hilts with seluts. One is from a similar dagger to the one shown in post #9, one is from a pedang; one was prepared for sale pre-WWII, one was prepared for sale in the 1970's; both came from the same source. Both were fitted to the weapons in Central Jawa, specifically for sale to tourists.

Mixing and matching was not limited to shonks working out of Central Javanese markets, nor to forgers in Singapore and Jakarta, nor to UK arms dealers in Birmingham. It was and is very widespread.