Moro Kris

[Battara]

Not saying all are trade blades but certainly there was trade between these areas. Note that for example Magindanao pieces do also have woven silver bands like the Sulu.

I also wonder if this could be a type of cross over of which Cato is not aware.

We certainly need more information than Cato provides. Wish Cecil would come out with his book...

I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

Frankly this is part of why i wondered if the silver work could be a later addition. That and the fact that the quality of the work does not seem up to the standard i would expect on an old presentation piece.

[David]

The first close-up on the asang-asang also seems to show that this is not the original clamp and perhaps not the original hilt.

[Rick]

Re pic #4 ; couldn't that just be where the patina was left ?

A shadow line from a not-so-complete clean ?

[Spunjer]

Frankly this is part of why i wondered if the silver work could be a later addition. That and the fact that the quality of the work does not seem up to the standard i would expect on an old presentation piece.

well, therein lies the problem, david. what's your expectation of what a presentation piece would look like? i mentioned a provenanced piece on my earlier post, so i'm posting the dagger that was given to Lt. Col. Webb Hayes by Datu Piang. would you doubt that as well?

The first close-up on the asang-asang also seems to show that this is not the original clamp and perhaps not the original hilt

perhaps i'm missing something, or you see something that i don't, but what makes you think the asang-asang and the handle are not original?

I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

right you are, jose. the symbols on the blade and the silverwork on the bands screams sulu.

[Battara]

Does this datu Piang gunong have a silver hilt?

[Spunjer]

hello rick, you're right. the asang-asang has been pushed from the top, exposing the shadow line. at pic 7, the clamp is showned pushed back in line where the shadow's at.

jose: yes, the hilt is silver...

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

well, therein lies the problem, david. what's your expectation of what a presentation piece would look like? i mentioned a provenanced piece on my earlier post, so i'm posting the dagger that was given to Lt. Col. Webb Hayes by Datu Piang. would you doubt that as well?

I'm not sure what my expectation is exactly. I have Moro weapons that have silver work from this time period. The gage of the silver tends to be thicker and the craftsmanship of the designs finer. Of course this doesn't mean that the same quality work would be presented to a foreign soldier. I honestly don't know what the custom would be here.
I am not questioning the entire piece mind you, not at all, simply the silver work. I believe the provenance of the plaque which is screwed to the sheath is true. I like the blade very much. Asking me if i doubt the gunong is apples and oranges. I see nothing suspicious to my eye there. A very interesting gunong btw. I think the provenance is fairly clear with the kris, but where was is since 1902? How many hands? How many collectors? So i do wonder if someone may have possibly restored this blade at some time in it's history as so many of our own members here seem to do when they receive a new acquisition needing some TLC. Do you know it's line of succession down to your hands? What did the person you got this from have to say about it?

Originally Posted by Spunjer

perhaps i'm missing something, or you see something that i don't, but what makes you think the asang-asang and the handle are not original?

The hilt and pommel may well be original, but as you have acknowledged to Rick, the asang-asang has been moved at some point, either moved or changed completely.

[Spunjer]

Sadly, the new york times clip with the illustration of the sultan and the captain smiling as he was handing the kalis to him didn't come with it
But seriously, i have seen and held this particular kalis a month prior to acquiring it, even took some pics so i could take a good look at it. As far as the previous owner: he has been collecting since the early 60's. This particular piece has been with him for a long time. The gunong was an example to show you that a presentation piece need not to be a gold encrusted, junggayan ivory and other superlative type weapon, but rather it could just be something that we expect ti be of lesser quality. There's a b&w photo circulating in the 'net of three swords( i remembered one was an average barung) that was given by the same sultan to a reporter.
The probability of the hilt being exchanged sometimes after it was presented is possible, but the chance of whoever did that (for the sake of argument, say sometimes before the 70's) and exchanged it with a datu class pommel that is exclusively a Sulu Sultanate style is: a) he knew what the heck he was doing, or b) or one heck of a lucky guess. If we go by choice a), for what reason would he exchange it? I might not know much about moro weapons as much as you do, my friend, but i'm pretty confident that i think i know what i'm looking at, and i would like to think i'm wise enough to know what i'm getting into. As far as the asang-asang, it moved because as i have mentioned to rick, the clip was loose. Now, let me ask your expert opinion on this: is the asang-asang suppose to be air tight to the point where it's immovable on these type of kalis? You're really starting to worry me about being gyped into buying a supposedly an excellent provenanced and one of a kind piece....

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

Sadly, the new york times clip with the illustration of the sultan and the captain smiling as he was handing the kalis to him didn't come with it
But seriously, i have seen and held this particular kalis a month prior to acquiring it, even took some pics so i could take a good look at it. As far as the previous owner: he has been collecting since the early 60's. This particular piece has been with him for a long time. The gunong was an example to show you that a presentation piece need not to be a gold encrusted, junggayan ivory and other superlative type weapon, but rather it could just be something that we expect ti be of lesser quality. There's a b&w photo circulating in the 'net of three swords( i remembered one was an average barung) that was given by the same sultan to a reporter.
The probability of the hilt being exchanged sometimes after it was presented is possible, but the chance of whoever did that (for the sake of argument, say sometimes before the 70's) and exchanged it with a datu class pommel that is exclusively a Sulu Sultanate style is: a) he knew what the heck he was doing, or b) or one heck of a lucky guess. If we go by choice a), for what reason would he exchange it? I might not know much about moro weapons as much as you do, my friend, but i'm pretty confident that i think i know what i'm looking at, and i would like to think i'm wise enough to know what i'm getting into. As far as the asang-asang, it moved because as i have mentioned to rick, the clip was loose. Now, let me ask your expert opinion on this: is the asang-asang suppose to be air tight to the point where it's immovable on these type of kalis? You're really starting to worry me about being gyped into buying a supposedly an excellent provenanced and one of a kind piece....

Sadly Ron you are going far beyond my very simple questioning of the silver work on this hilt. So to be clear (and if you re-read my posts you will see that i have already been clear):
1. I do NOT doubt the provenance of this piece and never have. I do NOT believe you have been ripped off (gypped is an ethnic slur to be avoided IMO) and i do of course believe this is a nice one-of-a-kind item.
2. I questioned the movement of the asang-asang, but don't, as i have already stated, necessarily believe that the hilt has been changed. When i have seen previous shadow outlines on blades before it has usually indicated that the clamp had been changed at some time.
3. I am not now, nor have i ever implied that i am an "expert" on these types of kalis or anything at all for that matter. I observe and ask simple questions to which i do not expect the OP to get defensive about. You obviously have more experience with Moro weapons than i do since it is your thing, so please don't get snarky with me about this. But since you ask, in my logical mind it is the function of the clamp to hold the hilt securely and tightly to the blade so i would not image that movement in the clamp is a positive thing for it's functioning.
4. I do not now, nor have i ever believed that a presentation piece needs to be encrusted with gold or ivory. I was merely commenting that the silver work on you kalis does not look up to the standard of the era in general as i know it. That does not mean that it is not of that era, just that i am used to seeing a higher level of silver work when silver is employed.
5. As for the gunong, i am surprised you would consider this a "lower quality" piece. I think it's pretty damn beautiful and unusual (especially the nicely carved hilt) and one i would personally be more that happy to have been "presented" with.
To sum up Ron, i have never in this thread made any positive claims that this kalis isn't what you claim it to be. I have had some questions about certain details on the hilt which i have made not as a matter of any claimed expertise, but merely on logical observation and past experience. It's a beautiful blade and a wonderful find, one i would be more than happy to own. I still remain doubtful about the silver work on the hilt, but i can certainly make no definite claims that my doubts are correct. Still i assert my right to question what i observe and do so without the intent of causing any offense to you or your great understanding of Moro weaponry.

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

There's a b&w photo circulating in the 'net of three swords( i remembered one was an average barung) that was given by the same sultan to a reporter.

As someone who has worked for may years in the world of journalism i would put forth that the report was fortunate to have been given any swords at all and not just be sliced up by them and left to die by the roadside...