Moro Kris

[Battara]

There was also a lot of trade between Sulu and the Maguindanao............

[Spunjer]

That would have been my first impulse, jose, but i just find it hard to believe that all blades that are misplaced based on cato's categorization can be easily dismissed as a "traded blade."

[Battara]

Not saying all are trade blades but certainly there was trade between these areas. Note that for example Magindanao pieces do also have woven silver bands like the Sulu.

I also wonder if this could be a type of cross over of which Cato is not aware.

We certainly need more information than Cato provides. Wish Cecil would come out with his book...

I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

Frankly this is part of why i wondered if the silver work could be a later addition. That and the fact that the quality of the work does not seem up to the standard i would expect on an old presentation piece.

[David]

The first close-up on the asang-asang also seems to show that this is not the original clamp and perhaps not the original hilt.

[Rick]

Re pic #4 ; couldn't that just be where the patina was left ?

A shadow line from a not-so-complete clean ?

[Spunjer]

Frankly this is part of why i wondered if the silver work could be a later addition. That and the fact that the quality of the work does not seem up to the standard i would expect on an old presentation piece.

well, therein lies the problem, david. what's your expectation of what a presentation piece would look like? i mentioned a provenanced piece on my earlier post, so i'm posting the dagger that was given to Lt. Col. Webb Hayes by Datu Piang. would you doubt that as well?

The first close-up on the asang-asang also seems to show that this is not the original clamp and perhaps not the original hilt

perhaps i'm missing something, or you see something that i don't, but what makes you think the asang-asang and the handle are not original?

I will say that the okir work on the blade and on the silver work does not appear to be Maguinanao or Maranao.

right you are, jose. the symbols on the blade and the silverwork on the bands screams sulu.

[Battara]

Does this datu Piang gunong have a silver hilt?

[Spunjer]

hello rick, you're right. the asang-asang has been pushed from the top, exposing the shadow line. at pic 7, the clamp is showned pushed back in line where the shadow's at.

jose: yes, the hilt is silver...

[David]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

well, therein lies the problem, david. what's your expectation of what a presentation piece would look like? i mentioned a provenanced piece on my earlier post, so i'm posting the dagger that was given to Lt. Col. Webb Hayes by Datu Piang. would you doubt that as well?

I'm not sure what my expectation is exactly. I have Moro weapons that have silver work from this time period. The gage of the silver tends to be thicker and the craftsmanship of the designs finer. Of course this doesn't mean that the same quality work would be presented to a foreign soldier. I honestly don't know what the custom would be here.
I am not questioning the entire piece mind you, not at all, simply the silver work. I believe the provenance of the plaque which is screwed to the sheath is true. I like the blade very much. Asking me if i doubt the gunong is apples and oranges. I see nothing suspicious to my eye there. A very interesting gunong btw. I think the provenance is fairly clear with the kris, but where was is since 1902? How many hands? How many collectors? So i do wonder if someone may have possibly restored this blade at some time in it's history as so many of our own members here seem to do when they receive a new acquisition needing some TLC. Do you know it's line of succession down to your hands? What did the person you got this from have to say about it?

Originally Posted by Spunjer

perhaps i'm missing something, or you see something that i don't, but what makes you think the asang-asang and the handle are not original?

The hilt and pommel may well be original, but as you have acknowledged to Rick, the asang-asang has been moved at some point, either moved or changed completely.