mamluk khanjar ??

B.I · 20th July 2005, 04:15 PM

hi aqtai,
examples of your dagger.

Aqtai · 20th July 2005, 07:08 PM

Cheers B.I., thanks for that.

The great Mamluk khanjar mystery still remains unsolved though.

RSWORD · 20th July 2005, 08:24 PM

I was fortunate enough to see the lapis lazuli hilted example while on display in a museum in NC a year or two ago. It is part of the Khalili collection. While the selection of arms/armour was fairly minimal, there were some fantastic items including a shamshir blade supposedly from the 13th century, some horse armour, some georgeous guns and an amazing war mask. The dagger was simply georgeous in person.

B.I · 20th July 2005, 09:22 PM

hi rick,
i too have seen the dagger and the images dont do it justice. this exhibition you mentioned - was it all khalilis?
i know he has a great war mask but i am not aware of him owning a 13thC sabre blade.
the earliest known islamic curved swords were thought to be those in the topkapi.
however, there is a curved blade, thought to date around 1200 and of seljuk period that is in a private collection. i know the owner, and the previous owner and i wonder if it is the same sword. khalili doesnt or hasnt owned it so i wonder which blade you saw?
do you have any images or a description. the blade i am refering to has a chisselled hunting chase with spirralling arabeques along the blade.
i cant believe you would go to an exhibition without a camera

ariel · 20th July 2005, 09:33 PM

The very first post in this thread (by Rivkin) shows a bronze statue.
Rivkin, who is this fighter, where is the statue from and .....why does he have such a strange sword?

Rivkin · 20th July 2005, 10:59 PM

1. I think the problem is that we have no idea how khanjar is different from "dagger" - they seem to be different according to the text, therefore the whole question which is khanjar, which is dagger becomes extremely vague.

2. The stature is from Cairo Military Museum. It's supposed to be a mamluk- the fear of crusaders. There are a lot of things that look strange to me (starting with the fact that mamluks had extremely long beards, that even when cut in half were still something significant).
I have not seen monster-swords like this when it comes to crusades,
but may be it from the series when an indian made sword, that was owned by a circassian mamluk-atrak is labeled "an immortal example of arabic art" ?

ariel · 20th July 2005, 11:08 PM

For the life of me: he looks like something coming out of Russian history:
http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/rus...s/slide_15.htm

RSWORD · 20th July 2005, 11:09 PM

Brian,

Unfortunately I did not take a camera but I did purchase a catalogue of the collection.

Here are two pics of the sword in question. According to the catalogue description, it is attributed to Sultan Baybars and they place the blade circa 1270. There are two inscriptions on the blade which reference Sultan Baybars. One is a great one and it translates as "Glory to our Lord, the Sultan, al-Malik, the Just, the Learned, the Defender of the Faith, The Warrior at the Frontiers......, al-Zahir Baybars, the Associate of the Commander of the Faithful, may God make his victories glorious!" The other inscription simply states "al-sultan al-Malik al-Zahir Baybars".

Rivkin · 20th July 2005, 11:20 PM

1. Fantastic pictures ! A short sword (looks like something taken out of Samarkand's steppes is not it ?), can it be a khandjar ?

2. Ariel: The topic of russian arms and armor is a very controversial in itself. Once upon a time I had the opportunity to speak with a relatively well known russian viking archeologist, who was extremely interested in antique weapons. It's happened about 10 years ago, so lot's of it is gone from my memory, but his main point was that the majority, especially early ones, of russian arms and armour were by far not of a local manufacture. Unfortunately under the pressure from the Party the archeologists had to classify viking-frankish "ulbrecht" swords as "true russian bulat, the secret of which we don't know".

How much truth in what he told me, I don't know and I hope that someone more knowladgeble can enlighten us.

P.S. I awlays wondered if 14th century "russian" and 13th century "turko-mongolian" armour and arms related ?

20th July 2005, 04:15 PM	#1
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, examples of your dagger. Attached Images

20th July 2005, 11:09 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	Brian, Unfortunately I did not take a camera but I did purchase a catalogue of the collection. Here are two pics of the sword in question. According to the catalogue description, it is attributed to Sultan Baybars and they place the blade circa 1270. There are two inscriptions on the blade which reference Sultan Baybars. One is a great one and it translates as "Glory to our Lord, the Sultan, al-Malik, the Just, the Learned, the Defender of the Faith, The Warrior at the Frontiers......, al-Zahir Baybars, the Associate of the Commander of the Faithful, may God make his victories glorious!" The other inscription simply states "al-sultan al-Malik al-Zahir Baybars". Attached Images

20th July 2005, 07:08 PM	#2
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Cheers B.I., thanks for that. The great Mamluk khanjar mystery still remains unsolved though.

20th July 2005, 08:24 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	I was fortunate enough to see the lapis lazuli hilted example while on display in a museum in NC a year or two ago. It is part of the Khalili collection. While the selection of arms/armour was fairly minimal, there were some fantastic items including a shamshir blade supposedly from the 13th century, some horse armour, some georgeous guns and an amazing war mask. The dagger was simply georgeous in person.

20th July 2005, 09:22 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rick, i too have seen the dagger and the images dont do it justice. this exhibition you mentioned - was it all khalilis? i know he has a great war mask but i am not aware of him owning a 13thC sabre blade. the earliest known islamic curved swords were thought to be those in the topkapi. however, there is a curved blade, thought to date around 1200 and of seljuk period that is in a private collection. i know the owner, and the previous owner and i wonder if it is the same sword. khalili doesnt or hasnt owned it so i wonder which blade you saw? do you have any images or a description. the blade i am refering to has a chisselled hunting chase with spirralling arabeques along the blade. i cant believe you would go to an exhibition without a camera

20th July 2005, 09:33 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The very first post in this thread (by Rivkin) shows a bronze statue. Rivkin, who is this fighter, where is the statue from and .....why does he have such a strange sword?

20th July 2005, 10:59 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	1. I think the problem is that we have no idea how khanjar is different from "dagger" - they seem to be different according to the text, therefore the whole question which is khanjar, which is dagger becomes extremely vague. 2. The stature is from Cairo Military Museum. It's supposed to be a mamluk- the fear of crusaders. There are a lot of things that look strange to me (starting with the fact that mamluks had extremely long beards, that even when cut in half were still something significant). I have not seen monster-swords like this when it comes to crusades, but may be it from the series when an indian made sword, that was owned by a circassian mamluk-atrak is labeled "an immortal example of arabic art" ?

20th July 2005, 11:08 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	For the life of me: he looks like something coming out of Russian history: http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/rus...s/slide_15.htm

20th July 2005, 11:20 PM	#9
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	1. Fantastic pictures ! A short sword (looks like something taken out of Samarkand's steppes is not it ?), can it be a khandjar ? 2. Ariel: The topic of russian arms and armor is a very controversial in itself. Once upon a time I had the opportunity to speak with a relatively well known russian viking archeologist, who was extremely interested in antique weapons. It's happened about 10 years ago, so lot's of it is gone from my memory, but his main point was that the majority, especially early ones, of russian arms and armour were by far not of a local manufacture. Unfortunately under the pressure from the Party the archeologists had to classify viking-frankish "ulbrecht" swords as "true russian bulat, the secret of which we don't know". How much truth in what he told me, I don't know and I hope that someone more knowladgeble can enlighten us. P.S. I awlays wondered if 14th century "russian" and 13th century "turko-mongolian" armour and arms related ?