Tlingit Double Dagger

[archer]

Jim i have ordered a DVD of the Evolution of Tlingit daggers. My Jun 19th post has a link well worth looking over regarding the Athabaskan version of forged copper daggers. Ward the swirls are volutes they appear in older European weapons and may be a link to Migration to Alaska. The copper bolsters are separate and swedged on.
I put up some shots of the volute daggers. first from the top is all copper Athabaskan/ Dene in origins the third is all copper both of these are flat on one side but, not the rounded profile of the third and fourth daggers. Copper Tlingit daggers have a stepped central ridge due in part its thought to cold forming. I haven't figured out where these other dagger came from.

I found a forum thread that mentions, about the Slave killer never having actually killed, that being left up to a double bladed dagger called goox du een. if the slave wasn't released?? http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...merican+graves

I included closeups of the blades textures in hopes some of our knowledgeable metal experts may see something of interest in them.
Oh, the eyes question Story goes they emulate rams horns.

[aiontay]

Is it possible that cut down sword blades were made in to daggers? On the southern plains we used sword and bayonet reconfigured as spear heads.

[archer]

Hi Aiontay, These are supposed to be one piece of steel. There have been some fakes done as you describe and some made by for the tourist trade. So be careful. When this one came in I was puzzled by various areas on the blades
being too shiny. hopefully high nickel content. Here's one of a few said to made from Meteorite. They think that several of these were made by a lady smith from The Northern interior of Alaska.
http://vilda.alaska.edu/cdm4/item_vi...PTR=792&REC=29

[kino]

A visit to the Burke Museum's web page might shed some light on your beautiful knife
http://www.washington.edu/burkemuseum/

The Burke have a few in their collection.

[Jim McDougall]

Archer I'm really glad to have been able to add some useful information to the outstanding work you are doing on collecting outstanding examples of these weapons, and to see you have ordered the DVD. You are really putting together some comprehensive work on these tremendously esoteric weapons which will better present and preserve the history of them and the fascinating tribes who used them.

Tom, good observation and some of these do seem to have eyes, which would fall nicely into the totemic applications clearly present in these cultures, however these voluted features are stylized geometric devices it would seem. It is interesting that this type feature is indeed present on many early weapons in Europe back to the Hallstadt period and the swords with antenna or anthromorphic hilts.

Archer, as you note, this same basic voluted feature with reference to the 'rams horns'. This feature was well known in Celtic art as such, and actually became an integral component on many Scottish basket hilts at the connecting bars of the saltire plates, which are sometimes described as 'rams horns'. These are in varying shapes but with the same general voluted figure.

These kinds of details truly are tempting in wondering and imagining, just how far and through how much time these subtle forms and symbolisms along with many other aspects of anthropology might have travelled. While most scholarship insists that convergent evolution is the most likely view, we are constantly learning how much more globally connected these cultures and civilizations really were. It was much more networking and over long periods of time, but still the nuances of influence found thier way in diffusing far and wide.

Pepper, thank you for your kind comments, and thank you for sharing the beautiful photo! You are lucky to have grown up in one of the most picturesque and fascinating regions in the world. I have travelled some up there, but only as far as Puget Sound, and there one cannot help but being overwhelmed by the greenery and history of these American Indian cultures.
I look forward to going back one day, maybe when gas prices come down a little I can get this rig back up there!

All the very best,
Jim

[archer]

I'm puzzled as to just how the apparently Separate copper bolsters were fused together and pleased to see Solder wasn't a method. I've included several shots
of on side that shows old separation and some of those still firmly fused? or connected. Also a link to a bit on Haida warfare, etc.
http://www.angelfire.com/realm/shade...geswarfare.htm
note the armor and the dagger displayed.
Thank you all for your input, Steve

[archer]

Disregard I went to edit the link and stated a separate post Steve

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by aiontay

Is it possible that cut down sword blades were made in to daggers? On the southern plains we used sword and bayonet reconfigured as spear heads.

Apparently as people who were already metal smiths, the North West coastal peoples preferred to reforge rather than regrind their source materials, so it's much harder to tell. Word of mouth is that they used such things as worn out tools, iron tires, and even barrel hoops. Certainly a large chunk of carbon steel like a foreign sword blade might be in danger of getting reforged in such a community.
The Maori use a wooden sword ("club") with a rounded or squared tip, that has on the back end of its handle, a dagger blade. There is a resemblance. (also to a certain African type though on those the backspike isn't actually a blade)
I notice cultural and artistic resemblances do not seem to be contained by supposed barriers like oceans to anything like the extent that is sometimes supposed.

[Tim Simmons]

The item that started this thread does indeed look as if it could be from the 19th century. It can be bit of a minefield Native American stuff "I have learned at my cost" but it is out there. Perhaps you are lucky. Much like the British Museum which has massive totem poles in its atrium. Picked from the source just at the time, late 19th century when the use of local art was at its most weak in a cultural sense.

This will sound a rather "erich von daniken" but I am begining to believe that iron work was happening in the Pacific North West well before official Western/European/USA contact.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The item that started this thread does indeed look as if it could be from the 19th century. It can be bit of a minefield Native American stuff "I have learned at my cost" but it is out there. Perhaps you are lucky. Much like the British Museum which has massive totem poles in its atrium. Picked from the source just at the time, late 19th century when the use of local art was at its most weak in a cultural sense.

This will sound a rather "erich von daniken" but I am begining to believe that iron work was happening in the Pacific North West well before official Western/European/USA contact.

Indeed it was, from contact with China and Siberia via trade networks operating in the regions to the north.

[Tim Simmons]

Just happen to find myself in town today making a delivery so I took a few snap, Japanese lunch and two or three beers.

[Tim Simmons]

This one too.

[David]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

This will sound a rather "erich von daniken" but I am begining to believe that iron work was happening in the Pacific North West well before official Western/European/USA contact.

I could be mistaken, but i believe it has already been established that iron working was taking place in the PNW before European contact. Nothing van Daniken about it as i don't think this skill has much to do with space aliens...

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Tim, as I was noting when I mentioned that iron working was already established was that your observation was astute and quite far from the von Daniken malady. Thank you for the pictures!

[Battara]

Wasn't von Daniken an alien?