Dacian - Romanian - Falx sword

Emanuel · 19th July 2005, 02:49 PM

I find it strange that the scycle/scythe blade design was simply abandonned. The only other examples I've seen of such curvature are african weapons like zairian throwing knives and executioner swords. One question bugs me: From a functional/physics point of view how is the concave edge more or less effective than the convex? The convex focussed all cutting power at the apex of the curve, does that apply to concave as well?

My appreciation for any answers.
Manolo

Ian · 19th July 2005, 05:18 PM

Manolo:

I think the sickle/scythe weapon was fairly widespread. One finds examples of their use as weapons into the early 20th C., and perhaps later, in southern India, Malaysia, and Indonesia.

Others can probably contribute more examples. The areas I listed still produce these blades for agricultural and domestic use, but those same blades could be used today, if needed, as weapons.

Ian.

fearn · 19th July 2005, 08:56 PM

Hi Manolo,

That's an excellent question! Here's my take on it: a convex blade is useful for slashing, and if the goal is to cut deeply, a slash (i.e. from a scimitar/shamshir), is a good way to do it. A convex weapon can do a couple of things. As you point out, it can focus a lot of power in a small spot (as with a kukri). However, the bill/scythe design actually works quite well on a pull-cut. I've got a bill-hook (actually, a woodsman's pal) that's quite good for cutting brambles and small brush. It doesn't smash them. Rather, the hook collects the branches at the sharp inner edge, and the pulling part of my stroke severs them. I suspect the same thing goes for the falx, with a different type of limb.

I suspect the reason we don't see more sickle-swords (or whatever) is twofold. One is that they tend to be tip heavy. The other is that they don't lend themselves to parrying as easily as other blade shapes do.

Other thoughts? That's just off the top of my head.

Fearn

ariel · 19th July 2005, 09:38 PM

South Indian choppers (Adya Katti, Moplah sword and, especially, Congavellum, Kongaval) are all constructed similar to the Radu's ancestral implement. The only real difference is that they are all relatively small, like 20-30 inch at the most.
But this is likely a function of the body size. I remember Radu's posting of his granddad's picture: the guy needed a two-hand sword to cut himself a decent slice of Mamalyga!

Emanuel · 20th July 2005, 05:08 PM

Thanks for the explanation fearn.
I'm thoroughly obsessed with this damn thing, although it was crude in its use as a tool and unrefined as a weapon. I like the shape of it, the look of being an extension of the arm via the long hilt, through the smooth curve and into the deadly tip. The Moplah blade, as well as home depot bank blades are too thick and and even more brutish, not as graceful. I'll see what it takes to have one custom-made, around 1m long. Unfortunately I am too much of an amateur to understand the weight such a blade woull imply.
I know of Salamander Armoury. Any ideas on other possible smiths and forges?

Radu Transylvanicus · 9th January 2006, 10:22 AM

To Romanian hystorians this weapon, is known more as "sica" version, and in this country is accepted that it has evolved directly from the agricultural implements, likely a sickle. Normally "sica" is accepted as being the short, or one hand falx but I think little distinction was made in size than it is paraded now.
The THRAEX, a classic type of gladiator impersonating the Thracian warrior (the Dacians were of course of Thracian familly) character from the gladiator arenas of Roman Empire was carrying a well sized sica curved dagger as main weapon. As a side note the famous Spartacus was one of these, a Thracian himself from the southern parts.
Peasant rebelions were known as far 18th century in Romania to use agricultural tools as weapons and according to sources quite succesfully from sickles to bills. Specially when serfs were not allowed to carry or own weapons.
Manolo, you should try to find lectures of Hadrian Daicoviciu or Constantin Daicoviciu, like chapters on Dacian weaponry on their books. I'll se what I can dig for you but its hard being away from the homeland's libraries and museums.
If you want more graphic (and real contemporary with the times) you should look for an album or "googlise" on Trajan's Column (known to us Romanians as the Columna lui Traian) from Rome. It is a monument in Rome erected by the Trajan himself in 113 to comemorate his conquest of Dacia and Sarmisegetusa (the capital), his great victory against local king Decebalus.

Is that you on that furious reenactment picture, taking a plunge in the poor Roman shield ? If thats you, you should grow a beard, tie some "opinci" and youre a true Dacian, my brother!

Radu Transylvanicus · 9th January 2006, 09:18 PM

Other excellent graphic sources, contemporary with those times, are the bass-relief of Tropaeum Traiani, from Adamclisi in Romania, where you can exactly see what you are looking for, I believe, scene fights with large falx between Romans and Dacians.
The sica is eventually a Dacian word, while falx (correctly "falx dacica" ) is a Latin one.
Here is a short, approximate translation from Roman work of FRONTO, named "PRINCIPIA HISTORIAE II”:
"He left for war with seasoned soldiers, him, (ann. Emperor Trajan) that hated the Parts (ann. ancient Persians), our enemies, and would not care much for their arrows, after the terrible wounds inflicted by the curved swords of the Dacians..." The translation is provided by me.
The changing in Roman armour in arder to respond the devastating blows of the falx dacica was adding transversal strips of thick metal on the shields and helmets of the Roman legionars and there are well mentioned.
The falx dacica as we know it is probably a development, so proud to say it, a Northern Dacian development, inside the Carpathians, right in the Middle of my Transylvania.

Interesting to mention, so powerful was the myth of this weapon, that after the integration of Dacians in the Roman Empire, those who would leave their homelands and die somewhere else or fight as dispatched officers would use an image of a falx next to their name and title, to mark their ethnical heritage.
Here is an excellent article on the matter, assuming you can read Romanian, if not, just enjoy the images :
http://www.gk.ro/sarmizegetusa/ranistorum/arma.html

19th July 2005, 02:49 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I find it strange that the scycle/scythe blade design was simply abandonned. The only other examples I've seen of such curvature are african weapons like zairian throwing knives and executioner swords. One question bugs me: From a functional/physics point of view how is the concave edge more or less effective than the convex? The convex focussed all cutting power at the apex of the curve, does that apply to concave as well? My appreciation for any answers. Manolo Last edited by Manolo; 19th July 2005 at 03:44 PM.

20th July 2005, 05:08 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thanks for the explanation fearn. I'm thoroughly obsessed with this damn thing, although it was crude in its use as a tool and unrefined as a weapon. I like the shape of it, the look of being an extension of the arm via the long hilt, through the smooth curve and into the deadly tip. The Moplah blade, as well as home depot bank blades are too thick and and even more brutish, not as graceful. I'll see what it takes to have one custom-made, around 1m long. Unfortunately I am too much of an amateur to understand the weight such a blade woull imply. I know of Salamander Armoury. Any ideas on other possible smiths and forges? Attached Images

9th January 2006, 10:22 AM	#6
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Re: To Romanian hystorians this weapon, is known more as "sica" version, and in this country is accepted that it has evolved directly from the agricultural implements, likely a sickle. Normally "sica" is accepted as being the short, or one hand falx but I think little distinction was made in size than it is paraded now. The THRAEX, a classic type of gladiator impersonating the Thracian warrior (the Dacians were of course of Thracian familly) character from the gladiator arenas of Roman Empire was carrying a well sized sica curved dagger as main weapon. As a side note the famous Spartacus was one of these, a Thracian himself from the southern parts. Peasant rebelions were known as far 18th century in Romania to use agricultural tools as weapons and according to sources quite succesfully from sickles to bills. Specially when serfs were not allowed to carry or own weapons. Manolo, you should try to find lectures of Hadrian Daicoviciu or Constantin Daicoviciu, like chapters on Dacian weaponry on their books. I'll se what I can dig for you but its hard being away from the homeland's libraries and museums. If you want more graphic (and real contemporary with the times) you should look for an album or "googlise" on Trajan's Column (known to us Romanians as the Columna lui Traian) from Rome. It is a monument in Rome erected by the Trajan himself in 113 to comemorate his conquest of Dacia and Sarmisegetusa (the capital), his great victory against local king Decebalus. Is that you on that furious reenactment picture, taking a plunge in the poor Roman shield ? If thats you, you should grow a beard, tie some "opinci" and youre a true Dacian, my brother! Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 9th January 2006 at 10:25 PM.

9th January 2006, 09:18 PM	#7
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Other excellent graphic sources, contemporary with those times, are the bass-relief of Tropaeum Traiani, from Adamclisi in Romania, where you can exactly see what you are looking for, I believe, scene fights with large falx between Romans and Dacians. The sica is eventually a Dacian word, while falx (correctly "falx dacica" ) is a Latin one. Here is a short, approximate translation from Roman work of FRONTO, named "PRINCIPIA HISTORIAE II”: "He left for war with seasoned soldiers, him, (ann. Emperor Trajan) that hated the Parts (ann. ancient Persians), our enemies, and would not care much for their arrows, after the terrible wounds inflicted by the curved swords of the Dacians..." The translation is provided by me. The changing in Roman armour in arder to respond the devastating blows of the falx dacica was adding transversal strips of thick metal on the shields and helmets of the Roman legionars and there are well mentioned. The falx dacica as we know it is probably a development, so proud to say it, a Northern Dacian development, inside the Carpathians, right in the Middle of my Transylvania. Interesting to mention, so powerful was the myth of this weapon, that after the integration of Dacians in the Roman Empire, those who would leave their homelands and die somewhere else or fight as dispatched officers would use an image of a falx next to their name and title, to mark their ethnical heritage. Here is an excellent article on the matter, assuming you can read Romanian, if not, just enjoy the images : http://www.gk.ro/sarmizegetusa/ranistorum/arma.html Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 9th January 2006 at 10:28 PM.

19th July 2005, 05:18 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Manolo: I think the sickle/scythe weapon was fairly widespread. One finds examples of their use as weapons into the early 20th C., and perhaps later, in southern India, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Others can probably contribute more examples. The areas I listed still produce these blades for agricultural and domestic use, but those same blades could be used today, if needed, as weapons. Ian.

19th July 2005, 08:56 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Manolo, That's an excellent question! Here's my take on it: a convex blade is useful for slashing, and if the goal is to cut deeply, a slash (i.e. from a scimitar/shamshir), is a good way to do it. A convex weapon can do a couple of things. As you point out, it can focus a lot of power in a small spot (as with a kukri). However, the bill/scythe design actually works quite well on a pull-cut. I've got a bill-hook (actually, a woodsman's pal) that's quite good for cutting brambles and small brush. It doesn't smash them. Rather, the hook collects the branches at the sharp inner edge, and the pulling part of my stroke severs them. I suspect the same thing goes for the falx, with a different type of limb. I suspect the reason we don't see more sickle-swords (or whatever) is twofold. One is that they tend to be tip heavy. The other is that they don't lend themselves to parrying as easily as other blade shapes do. Other thoughts? That's just off the top of my head. Fearn

19th July 2005, 09:38 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	South Indian choppers (Adya Katti, Moplah sword and, especially, Congavellum, Kongaval) are all constructed similar to the Radu's ancestral implement. The only real difference is that they are all relatively small, like 20-30 inch at the most. But this is likely a function of the body size. I remember Radu's posting of his granddad's picture: the guy needed a two-hand sword to cut himself a decent slice of Mamalyga!