Tlingit Double Dagger

colin henshaw · 19th June 2011, 09:28 AM

Looks good to me, but I am not an expert. Have you tried the American Museum of Natural History website ?

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2011, 09:21 PM

Looking at this beautiful dagger I was compelled to search for more information. One of the greatest things to me about these weapons is learning from them, and it is exciting when information accompanies them, so heres what I found.

It seemed unusual from the examples I found, that this one had such perfectly symmetrical flutes rather than the usual midrib in the blade.
While some Tlingit daggers are dual blades like this (somewhat reminiscent of the Indian, Syrian, Sudanese haladie) others are with single blade and with two somewhat voluted arms extended up and outward from the opposite end of the grip.

The leather straps wrapped on the grip are part of a lanyard or tether which is usually wrapped about the body and wrist, these daggers are sheathed and worn at the chest.

This example is intriguing, not just by the superior quality metalwork and fluted blades, but the copper cuffs at the blade roots. These would suggest a weapon intended to reflect wealth or status, which this certainly appears to be. As I was amazed by the apparant skill of the maker, I wondered at what point the tribes began the use of iron over copper for blades.

I found this entry on the Tlingit daggers in "The American Indian" , A. Hyatt Verrill, N.Y. 1927, p.374,
"...the war knives or daggers were most remarkable. Originally these were made of native copper, hammered and ground into shape; but with the arrival of white men this metal was discarded in favor of steel. Securing old files by trade with the whites, these Indians softened, cut, ground and worked the steel into the most beautifully made and highly finished double edged knives. Often these are deeply fluted along the blade; not infrequently they are inlaid with silver or copper, and occasionally one is seen with the steel blade welded to a copper section near the handle".

It is worthy of note that this material was written in 1927, long before the considerable expansion in these Northwest regions and before widespread collecting of these rather esoteric items became popular, so it increases the likelihood of describing weapons actually still in use contemporarily. I would suggest this dagger corresponds more with these earlier known types and would fall into the 'real deal' category!

Excellent reading concerning the Tlingit, and to some extent the weapons can be found in:

"Crossroads of Continents" Ed. William Fitzhugh and A, Crowell, 1988 which has the paper, "Tlingit: People of the Wolf and the Raven" by Fredrick de Luna.

"The Evolution of Tlingit Daggers", Ashley Kristen Verplank, University of Washington thesis, 2009

"Keepers of the Totem" Time'Life books, 1993

"Metallurgy of the Tlingit, Dene, and Eskimo" John Witthoft & Frances Eyman, 'Expedition" Spring 1969

I'm glad this outstanding dagger was shared here, and I hope this information will be somewhat helpful in learning more about these daggers and the tribes who used them.

All best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 19th June 2011, 09:45 PM

Well done Jim

.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Well done Jim

.
Jens

Thank you so much my friend!!

Jim

David · 19th June 2011, 10:49 PM

We have, of course, explored these daggers on these forums before. You can find some good information here:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=152681
I look forward to more photos of yours.

archer · 19th June 2011, 11:06 PM

I have to second Jens' comments. Here are links to Information on the copper types mainly. They give a lot of incite. http://www.penn.museum/documents/pu.../Metallurgy.pdf

http://www.fenimoreartmuseum.org/fi...it1/e10554a.htm

Jim, I should mentioned that it's 23 5/8 inches long, probably a war dagger, so i don't know how they were worn. You're right about the neck sheaths for the smaller ones. The hide sheaths incorporated copper on the ends to give the needed protection. You must have an enormous library. I need time to go thru all the very much appreciated information, Thanks

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2011, 11:21 PM

Thanks very much Archer! this really is a beauty and had no idea of the size.....sure sounds like a war dagger OK! Probably didnt wear this one on the chest...would look like one of those rapper medallions that weigh half a ton

I wish I did still have my library with me......but the few books I have crammed everywhere in this RV is why we call it 'the bookmobile'

Thank you again for sharing this with us, what intriguing history.
Congratulations and all the best,
Jim

ThePepperSkull · 19th June 2011, 11:41 PM

I one day wish to own a very nice Tlinggit piece like the one you have. It's gorgeous! growing up in the Pacific Northwest, Traditional Native art (Mostly Haida) has been around me for as long as I have been here that often times I forget its beauty. Not only the blades that the likes of the Tlinggit have made but also statues and totemic pieces. (More notable around where I live are pieces made by the traditional Haida artist Bill Reid. My favourite piece, a statue of his statue called "Chief of the Underworld Sea" is the central piece when you enter the local Aquarium)

Jim, many thanks for the information as well. I know a very limited about about these so more recources on the matter is a godsend.

Again, very beautiful knife.

19th June 2011, 09:21 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Looking at this beautiful dagger I was compelled to search for more information. One of the greatest things to me about these weapons is learning from them, and it is exciting when information accompanies them, so heres what I found. It seemed unusual from the examples I found, that this one had such perfectly symmetrical flutes rather than the usual midrib in the blade. While some Tlingit daggers are dual blades like this (somewhat reminiscent of the Indian, Syrian, Sudanese haladie) others are with single blade and with two somewhat voluted arms extended up and outward from the opposite end of the grip. The leather straps wrapped on the grip are part of a lanyard or tether which is usually wrapped about the body and wrist, these daggers are sheathed and worn at the chest. This example is intriguing, not just by the superior quality metalwork and fluted blades, but the copper cuffs at the blade roots. These would suggest a weapon intended to reflect wealth or status, which this certainly appears to be. As I was amazed by the apparant skill of the maker, I wondered at what point the tribes began the use of iron over copper for blades. I found this entry on the Tlingit daggers in "The American Indian" , A. Hyatt Verrill, N.Y. 1927, p.374, "...the war knives or daggers were most remarkable. Originally these were made of native copper, hammered and ground into shape; but with the arrival of white men this metal was discarded in favor of steel. Securing old files by trade with the whites, these Indians softened, cut, ground and worked the steel into the most beautifully made and highly finished double edged knives. Often these are deeply fluted along the blade; not infrequently they are inlaid with silver or copper, and occasionally one is seen with the steel blade welded to a copper section near the handle". It is worthy of note that this material was written in 1927, long before the considerable expansion in these Northwest regions and before widespread collecting of these rather esoteric items became popular, so it increases the likelihood of describing weapons actually still in use contemporarily. I would suggest this dagger corresponds more with these earlier known types and would fall into the 'real deal' category! Excellent reading concerning the Tlingit, and to some extent the weapons can be found in: "Crossroads of Continents" Ed. William Fitzhugh and A, Crowell, 1988 which has the paper, "Tlingit: People of the Wolf and the Raven" by Fredrick de Luna. "The Evolution of Tlingit Daggers", Ashley Kristen Verplank, University of Washington thesis, 2009 "Keepers of the Totem" Time'Life books, 1993 "Metallurgy of the Tlingit, Dene, and Eskimo" John Witthoft & Frances Eyman, 'Expedition" Spring 1969 I'm glad this outstanding dagger was shared here, and I hope this information will be somewhat helpful in learning more about these daggers and the tribes who used them. All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th June 2011 at 11:22 PM.

19th June 2011, 11:06 PM	#6
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Some Info Links I have to second Jens' comments. Here are links to Information on the copper types mainly. They give a lot of incite. http://www.penn.museum/documents/pu.../Metallurgy.pdf http://www.fenimoreartmuseum.org/fi...it1/e10554a.htm Jim, I should mentioned that it's 23 5/8 inches long, probably a war dagger, so i don't know how they were worn. You're right about the neck sheaths for the smaller ones. The hide sheaths incorporated copper on the ends to give the needed protection. You must have an enormous library. I need time to go thru all the very much appreciated information, Thanks Attached Images

19th June 2011, 11:41 PM	#8
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	I one day wish to own a very nice Tlinggit piece like the one you have. It's gorgeous! growing up in the Pacific Northwest, Traditional Native art (Mostly Haida) has been around me for as long as I have been here that often times I forget its beauty. Not only the blades that the likes of the Tlinggit have made but also statues and totemic pieces. (More notable around where I live are pieces made by the traditional Haida artist Bill Reid. My favourite piece, a statue of his statue called "Chief of the Underworld Sea" is the central piece when you enter the local Aquarium) Jim, many thanks for the information as well. I know a very limited about about these so more recources on the matter is a godsend. Again, very beautiful knife. Attached Images

19th June 2011, 09:28 AM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Looks good to me, but I am not an expert. Have you tried the American Museum of Natural History website ?

19th June 2011, 09:45 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Well done Jim . Jens

19th June 2011, 10:49 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	We have, of course, explored these daggers on these forums before. You can find some good information here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=152681 I look forward to more photos of yours.

19th June 2011, 11:21 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Thanks very much Archer! this really is a beauty and had no idea of the size.....sure sounds like a war dagger OK! Probably didnt wear this one on the chest...would look like one of those rapper medallions that weigh half a ton I wish I did still have my library with me......but the few books I have crammed everywhere in this RV is why we call it 'the bookmobile' Thank you again for sharing this with us, what intriguing history. Congratulations and all the best, Jim