mamluk khanjar ??

Aqtai · 18th July 2005, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi aqtai,
these daggers, shown in your image, are of a 'common' type. i use the word common lightly, as they are rare, but do exist in enough numbers to research.
they are thought, in style, to originate in iran from the 15thC and replicated (or adapted) in style by the ottomans and later, indians.
they exist during the mamluk period, so you would think this could be a candidate for the weapon discussed.
however, these were all very ornate and many exist in european collections, having been given as court gifts, especially during the sulyman period. due to the high level of workmanship, i find it very hard to believe they were thrown, as mentioned by krill. i have a feeling he was hinting at a more 'useful' weapon.
i have many images of this blade type i can try and dig up.

Oh well, that clears that up then.

Its funny but I don't actually recall ever seeing a Mamluk dagger, although I have seen lots of Mamluk swords, axes and maces in books. Mind you it's been years since I set foot in a museum (KIDS!

). I'll have to dig up those photos i took in the Topkapi years ago.

B.I · 20th July 2005, 04:15 PM

hi aqtai,
examples of your dagger.

Aqtai · 20th July 2005, 07:08 PM

Cheers B.I., thanks for that.

The great Mamluk khanjar mystery still remains unsolved though.

RSWORD · 20th July 2005, 08:24 PM

I was fortunate enough to see the lapis lazuli hilted example while on display in a museum in NC a year or two ago. It is part of the Khalili collection. While the selection of arms/armour was fairly minimal, there were some fantastic items including a shamshir blade supposedly from the 13th century, some horse armour, some georgeous guns and an amazing war mask. The dagger was simply georgeous in person.

B.I · 20th July 2005, 09:22 PM

hi rick,
i too have seen the dagger and the images dont do it justice. this exhibition you mentioned - was it all khalilis?
i know he has a great war mask but i am not aware of him owning a 13thC sabre blade.
the earliest known islamic curved swords were thought to be those in the topkapi.
however, there is a curved blade, thought to date around 1200 and of seljuk period that is in a private collection. i know the owner, and the previous owner and i wonder if it is the same sword. khalili doesnt or hasnt owned it so i wonder which blade you saw?
do you have any images or a description. the blade i am refering to has a chisselled hunting chase with spirralling arabeques along the blade.
i cant believe you would go to an exhibition without a camera

ariel · 20th July 2005, 09:33 PM

The very first post in this thread (by Rivkin) shows a bronze statue.
Rivkin, who is this fighter, where is the statue from and .....why does he have such a strange sword?

Rivkin · 20th July 2005, 10:59 PM

1. I think the problem is that we have no idea how khanjar is different from "dagger" - they seem to be different according to the text, therefore the whole question which is khanjar, which is dagger becomes extremely vague.

2. The stature is from Cairo Military Museum. It's supposed to be a mamluk- the fear of crusaders. There are a lot of things that look strange to me (starting with the fact that mamluks had extremely long beards, that even when cut in half were still something significant).
I have not seen monster-swords like this when it comes to crusades,
but may be it from the series when an indian made sword, that was owned by a circassian mamluk-atrak is labeled "an immortal example of arabic art" ?

RSWORD · 20th July 2005, 11:09 PM

Brian,

Unfortunately I did not take a camera but I did purchase a catalogue of the collection.

Here are two pics of the sword in question. According to the catalogue description, it is attributed to Sultan Baybars and they place the blade circa 1270. There are two inscriptions on the blade which reference Sultan Baybars. One is a great one and it translates as "Glory to our Lord, the Sultan, al-Malik, the Just, the Learned, the Defender of the Faith, The Warrior at the Frontiers......, al-Zahir Baybars, the Associate of the Commander of the Faithful, may God make his victories glorious!" The other inscription simply states "al-sultan al-Malik al-Zahir Baybars".

20th July 2005, 04:15 PM	#2
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi aqtai, examples of your dagger. Attached Images

20th July 2005, 11:09 PM	#8
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	Brian, Unfortunately I did not take a camera but I did purchase a catalogue of the collection. Here are two pics of the sword in question. According to the catalogue description, it is attributed to Sultan Baybars and they place the blade circa 1270. There are two inscriptions on the blade which reference Sultan Baybars. One is a great one and it translates as "Glory to our Lord, the Sultan, al-Malik, the Just, the Learned, the Defender of the Faith, The Warrior at the Frontiers......, al-Zahir Baybars, the Associate of the Commander of the Faithful, may God make his victories glorious!" The other inscription simply states "al-sultan al-Malik al-Zahir Baybars". Attached Images

20th July 2005, 07:08 PM	#3
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	Cheers B.I., thanks for that. The great Mamluk khanjar mystery still remains unsolved though.

20th July 2005, 08:24 PM	#4
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,087	I was fortunate enough to see the lapis lazuli hilted example while on display in a museum in NC a year or two ago. It is part of the Khalili collection. While the selection of arms/armour was fairly minimal, there were some fantastic items including a shamshir blade supposedly from the 13th century, some horse armour, some georgeous guns and an amazing war mask. The dagger was simply georgeous in person.

20th July 2005, 09:22 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi rick, i too have seen the dagger and the images dont do it justice. this exhibition you mentioned - was it all khalilis? i know he has a great war mask but i am not aware of him owning a 13thC sabre blade. the earliest known islamic curved swords were thought to be those in the topkapi. however, there is a curved blade, thought to date around 1200 and of seljuk period that is in a private collection. i know the owner, and the previous owner and i wonder if it is the same sword. khalili doesnt or hasnt owned it so i wonder which blade you saw? do you have any images or a description. the blade i am refering to has a chisselled hunting chase with spirralling arabeques along the blade. i cant believe you would go to an exhibition without a camera

20th July 2005, 09:33 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The very first post in this thread (by Rivkin) shows a bronze statue. Rivkin, who is this fighter, where is the statue from and .....why does he have such a strange sword?

20th July 2005, 10:59 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	1. I think the problem is that we have no idea how khanjar is different from "dagger" - they seem to be different according to the text, therefore the whole question which is khanjar, which is dagger becomes extremely vague. 2. The stature is from Cairo Military Museum. It's supposed to be a mamluk- the fear of crusaders. There are a lot of things that look strange to me (starting with the fact that mamluks had extremely long beards, that even when cut in half were still something significant). I have not seen monster-swords like this when it comes to crusades, but may be it from the series when an indian made sword, that was owned by a circassian mamluk-atrak is labeled "an immortal example of arabic art" ?