Spanish Carbine ID

rickystl · 11th June 2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Rick,
Nice piece.
It is amazing that the (present) lock is a regional work, as having being made in Coruña; this is a particular situation, as most locks (and guns) bear marks of more charismatic centers, like Madrid, Ripol and so.
The barrel appears to keep its maker's mark quite readable, which so often doesn't happen. Can you post a close up picture of it?

Hello Fernando. Here is some additional pics, including an additional mark on the lower part of the frizzen. Do you know what the R on the wrist inlay stands for? Ripol? Hope you can read the barrel mark? If not, I'll try to get even closer. Thanks, Rick.

fernando · 11th June 2011, 07:32 PM

TREVIÑO in the frizzen. This could be either a name of a village or the name of the lockmaker. Given that there is already a place (Coruña) engraved in the upper part, we must infer that Treviño is the name of the lock maker, a Galego (Galitian) in/from Coruña.
I didn't find a barrel (gun) mark with similar lettering in James Lavin's fine work "A History of Firearms". Try to take a better picture; not necessarily larger, but a bit more accurate. We can try and decipher the name that is there, even if it is not from a famous smith.
The R is a bit rustic; i wouldn't go for "Ripol" or even "Royal". Probably is the owner last name initial, engraved at delivery.
Mind you, i am not a specialist; other members may show up and give you better opinions

.

rickystl · 11th June 2011, 09:54 PM

Fernando: Thank you so very much for the information. I will try to get a clearer picture of the barrel mark. It is difficult due to the fact that rust was taking over the barrel when I first aquired it. Thanks, Rick.

Fernando K · 12th June 2011, 10:21 PM

Hola, Rick

1º - No es una arma militar. Las guarniciones, abrazaderas del cañón (barrel), la placa de la culata y el guardamonte son de forma curvilínea.
2º - La parte de la caja (stock) donde se encaja (inleting) la llave(lock) parece haber sido para una llave de miquelete (miquelet lock) perdida y reemplazada por la actual, particularmente por su forma redonda.
3º - No he podido descifrar el punzón del cañón (barrel).
4º - El "punto" (lug) para la bayoneta, si es original, puede haber sido para calzar una bayoneta de caza.
5º - El escudo (escutcheon) con la letra R, no denota Ripoll (y no Ripol) y tradicionalmente usada para las iniciales del dueño.
6º - Por todo esto, creo que es un fusil o una carabina de caza, capaz de encastar una bayoneta.
7º - Ramiro Larrañaga, en "Sintesis Histórica de la Armería Vasca" (pagina 243) trae:
Treviño, Calixto de . Placencia. 1800
Treviño,Diego de . Limador. Eibar, 1762.
Treviño, Fermín de . Placencia, 1800
Treviño, Fernando de . Cajero (stockmaker). 1762.

Fernando K (no de Kirchner).

Hi, Rick

1 - not a military weapon. Fittings, clamps the barrel (barrel), the butt plate and trigger guard are curvilinear.
2 - The part of the box (stock) which is embedded (inleting) key (lock) appears to have been for a key Miquelet (Miquelet lock) lost and replaced by the current, particularly by its round shape.
3 - I could not figure out the punch of the gun (barrel).
4 - The "point" (lug) to the bayonet, if original, may have been to fit a bayonet fighter.
5 - The shield (escutcheon) with the letter R denotes no Ripoll (not Ripol) and traditionally used for the owner's initials.
6 - For all that, I think it is a rifle or hunting rifle capable of mating with a bayonet.
7 - Ramiro Larranaga, in "An introduction to the Armory Vasca" (page 243) brings:
Treviño, Calixto. Placencia. 1800
Treviño, Diego de. Filer. Eibar, 1762.
Treviño, Fermin. Placencia, 1800
Treviño, Fernando de. Cashier (stockmaker). 1762.

Fernando K (not Kirchner).

rickystl · 13th June 2011, 03:28 AM

Fernando: Again, thank you for the information. It's a very unusual piece. I'm sure there is an intriging history with this one. I'm out of town on business this week. But will take a better picture of the barrel mark when I return this coming weekend. Rick.

rickystl · 18th June 2011, 09:39 PM

Hello Fernando. Here are a couple more pics of the barrel mark. Hope you can make it out. My magnifying glass will not reproduce large enough for me to write what I see. I'll purchase a larger glass this weekend. Also, another pic of the lock mortise.If you look real close you can see the outline of a previous flintlock style lock. The wooden plug was done sometime back in the period. It is known that Spain changed from the miquelet style lock to the traditional flintlock style during the 1750's. Then back to the miquelet style about 1790. I now agree with you. Even with the bayonet lug, this piece was made for an individule. Thanks, Rick.

fernando · 21st June 2011, 12:42 PM

Hi Rick,
I guess you haven't noticed that there are two Fernandos posting here.
Post #7 was done by Fernando K, one of our Spanish speaking members, reason why he posts with a translating resource.

I have consulted a qualified contact from Spain, who confesses he can't figure out who the barrel maker is at looking to those letters. I still think that the problem is not so much that of magnifying the mark but more a question of recognizing it by experience. Very often smiths 'condense' their names in the mark crests, by omitting some letters.
... like G.EL meaning Gabriel, Dieg. meaning Diego, JV meaning Juan, FRAN.co meaning Francisco. They also create 'monograms', like joining two letters in one.
So in some cases you realize what the name is about because you have already identified it before in some listing or the like.
My Spanish source pretends that this barrel mark belongs to a Portuguese smith, but i am quite convinced that it is Spanish, be it Galitian or Castillian.
... like the first group of letters meanning JVAN (old spell for Juan).
Concerning the carbine as a whole, i would suggest this is an arranged setup, something very often occurred with salvaged weapons, namely after wars and conflicts. Local (often regional) smiths get hold of salvaged components of various (often) different firearms and 'invent' new ones, sometimes making themselves some missing parts, as the barrel bands in this one seem to be.
So instead of assuming that this carbine was previously mounted with a flint lock and later updated by a 'miquelete' one, we would better say that the smith picked up a salvaged flint tlock stock and adapted it with a miquelet (patilla) lock to put up a new firearm setup. The stock might not even be Spanish, but one left behind by invasion armies or the like. The mounting of a miquelet lock would be consistent in Spain, even at late dates (not so much in Portugal), as they fancied this system for a long time and they would always have lots of them at hand to use in new arrangements.
Mind you, i am just guessing about the whole thing ... no documented expertize here

.

18th June 2011, 09:39 PM	#6
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Hello Fernando. Here are a couple more pics of the barrel mark. Hope you can make it out. My magnifying glass will not reproduce large enough for me to write what I see. I'll purchase a larger glass this weekend. Also, another pic of the lock mortise.If you look real close you can see the outline of a previous flintlock style lock. The wooden plug was done sometime back in the period. It is known that Spain changed from the miquelet style lock to the traditional flintlock style during the 1750's. Then back to the miquelet style about 1790. I now agree with you. Even with the bayonet lug, this piece was made for an individule. Thanks, Rick. Attached Images

11th June 2011, 07:32 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	TREVIÑO in the frizzen. This could be either a name of a village or the name of the lockmaker. Given that there is already a place (Coruña) engraved in the upper part, we must infer that Treviño is the name of the lock maker, a Galego (Galitian) in/from Coruña. I didn't find a barrel (gun) mark with similar lettering in James Lavin's fine work "A History of Firearms". Try to take a better picture; not necessarily larger, but a bit more accurate. We can try and decipher the name that is there, even if it is not from a famous smith. The R is a bit rustic; i wouldn't go for "Ripol" or even "Royal". Probably is the owner last name initial, engraved at delivery. Mind you, i am not a specialist; other members may show up and give you better opinions .

11th June 2011, 09:54 PM	#3
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Fernando: Thank you so very much for the information. I will try to get a clearer picture of the barrel mark. It is difficult due to the fact that rust was taking over the barrel when I first aquired it. Thanks, Rick.

12th June 2011, 10:21 PM	#4
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	Hola, Rick 1º - No es una arma militar. Las guarniciones, abrazaderas del cañón (barrel), la placa de la culata y el guardamonte son de forma curvilínea. 2º - La parte de la caja (stock) donde se encaja (inleting) la llave(lock) parece haber sido para una llave de miquelete (miquelet lock) perdida y reemplazada por la actual, particularmente por su forma redonda. 3º - No he podido descifrar el punzón del cañón (barrel). 4º - El "punto" (lug) para la bayoneta, si es original, puede haber sido para calzar una bayoneta de caza. 5º - El escudo (escutcheon) con la letra R, no denota Ripoll (y no Ripol) y tradicionalmente usada para las iniciales del dueño. 6º - Por todo esto, creo que es un fusil o una carabina de caza, capaz de encastar una bayoneta. 7º - Ramiro Larrañaga, en "Sintesis Histórica de la Armería Vasca" (pagina 243) trae: Treviño, Calixto de . Placencia. 1800 Treviño,Diego de . Limador. Eibar, 1762. Treviño, Fermín de . Placencia, 1800 Treviño, Fernando de . Cajero (stockmaker). 1762. Fernando K (no de Kirchner). Hi, Rick 1 - not a military weapon. Fittings, clamps the barrel (barrel), the butt plate and trigger guard are curvilinear. 2 - The part of the box (stock) which is embedded (inleting) key (lock) appears to have been for a key Miquelet (Miquelet lock) lost and replaced by the current, particularly by its round shape. 3 - I could not figure out the punch of the gun (barrel). 4 - The "point" (lug) to the bayonet, if original, may have been to fit a bayonet fighter. 5 - The shield (escutcheon) with the letter R denotes no Ripoll (not Ripol) and traditionally used for the owner's initials. 6 - For all that, I think it is a rifle or hunting rifle capable of mating with a bayonet. 7 - Ramiro Larranaga, in "An introduction to the Armory Vasca" (page 243) brings: Treviño, Calixto. Placencia. 1800 Treviño, Diego de. Filer. Eibar, 1762. Treviño, Fermin. Placencia, 1800 Treviño, Fernando de. Cashier (stockmaker). 1762. Fernando K (not Kirchner).

13th June 2011, 03:28 AM	#5
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,630	Fernando: Again, thank you for the information. It's a very unusual piece. I'm sure there is an intriging history with this one. I'm out of town on business this week. But will take a better picture of the barrel mark when I return this coming weekend. Rick.

21st June 2011, 12:42 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Rick, I guess you haven't noticed that there are two Fernandos posting here. Post #7 was done by Fernando K, one of our Spanish speaking members, reason why he posts with a translating resource. I have consulted a qualified contact from Spain, who confesses he can't figure out who the barrel maker is at looking to those letters. I still think that the problem is not so much that of magnifying the mark but more a question of recognizing it by experience. Very often smiths 'condense' their names in the mark crests, by omitting some letters. ... like G.EL meaning Gabriel, Dieg. meaning Diego, JV meaning Juan, FRAN.co meaning Francisco. They also create 'monograms', like joining two letters in one. So in some cases you realize what the name is about because you have already identified it before in some listing or the like. My Spanish source pretends that this barrel mark belongs to a Portuguese smith, but i am quite convinced that it is Spanish, be it Galitian or Castillian. ... like the first group of letters meanning JVAN (old spell for Juan). Concerning the carbine as a whole, i would suggest this is an arranged setup, something very often occurred with salvaged weapons, namely after wars and conflicts. Local (often regional) smiths get hold of salvaged components of various (often) different firearms and 'invent' new ones, sometimes making themselves some missing parts, as the barrel bands in this one seem to be. So instead of assuming that this carbine was previously mounted with a flint lock and later updated by a 'miquelete' one, we would better say that the smith picked up a salvaged flint tlock stock and adapted it with a miquelet (patilla) lock to put up a new firearm setup. The stock might not even be Spanish, but one left behind by invasion armies or the like. The mounting of a miquelet lock would be consistent in Spain, even at late dates (not so much in Portugal), as they fancied this system for a long time and they would always have lots of them at hand to use in new arrangements. Mind you, i am just guessing about the whole thing ... no documented expertize here .