Help please. Japanese Gunto (Genuine ? ) with battlefield scabbard.

Rick · 4th June 2011, 10:27 PM

WoW !

You guys pay through the nose for Coca Cola ....

katana · 4th June 2011, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

WoW !

You guys pay through the nose for Coca Cola ....

LOL ......every sword should have a name.....perhaps 'price slasher' for this one

Best
David

laEspadaAncha · 5th June 2011, 07:35 PM

Hi David,

Re: drawing blood, you and I both! Sliced my thumb deep a couple days ago on a tanto I was remounting in koshirae after photographing it. I always look at such acts of carelessness as a sign that I am supposed to keep the blade that draws my blood... a blood sacrifice, if you will.

I've cut- tested several contemporary and vintage hunting knives I've sharpened - more as a test of the blade steel and my weak sharpening skills - but never an antique blade or a blade of considerable value. I have however needlessly destroyed more than my share of 2-liter bottles with things that go 'bang.'

Anyway, regarding the sword... I am looking forward to seeing photos of the nakago. The patina seems to indicate some real age, as does the presence of three mekugi ana... a puzzle as of yet unsolved, IMO.

Have you reached out to Rich yet? He indicates on his website the late-war, a.k.a., "desparation" swords were invariably of poor quality. Scroll down to "End-of-War" Hilts for his description of the type I believe your sword to be.

However, as has been said, the nakago seems to indicate otherwise.

I did photograph the shinogi on my koto waki, and found that the play of light can result in a photograph in which the shinogi looses a little of that "crispness" of definition so apparent with the naked eye. However, in most of the photos, it looked laser-straight. Here's two photos:

The first is of the shinogi on the aforementioned tanto that nearly took my thumb in tribute. The second is of my koto waki (ignore the idiot marks left by a previous owner's attempt to polish the sword). See how crisp the shinogi appears? Anyway, I look forward to seeing pics of the nakago.

BTW, Rick is right - you guys do pay a metric f#@&-ton for Coca-Cola!

Please tell me at least that's a 3-liter bottle!

katana · 6th June 2011, 04:25 PM

Hi Chris,
important matters first

.....the coke bottle is a 2 litre

....not a 3 . I don't do 'things that go bang' (due to UK laws) but certainly sounds fun.
If this blade turns out to be Nihonto, I will NOT be doing it again

unless it is not particularly valuable (monetary or historically)

Nice examples Chris, thank you for sharing.

Below are some pics of the nakago ....there does seem to be file marks ...also on the rear edge (top and bottom) some diagonal marks. I have tried again to capture the apparent 'activity' in the blade...but not very successfully. I have briefly 'cleaned' the kissaki with 1200 grit paper (not very well) but it seems to show some 'crispness' to its definition. The shinogi on mine is not as crisp as yours....very slightly rounded, but I think this may be due to poor polishing. There is a small section of the shinogi which is not perfectly in line ......at this same section on the blade there were 'ghost' marks, very unclear, but seem to have been Japanese characters which may have been polished out ....and in doing so affected the line of the shinogi at this point.

I have carefully checked for any fatal flaws ....and so far found none ....but then again a proper polish may show these more clearly ??
I , so far, have not contacted Rich yet ....I don't want to waste his time if this blade is not kosher or at least a high probabillity that it is genuine.

All the best
David

.

laEspadaAncha · 7th June 2011, 06:28 PM

Hi David,

Thank you for posting the pics of the nakago. I am at a loss...

The patina looks legitimate and old, and as been mentioned, along with the three mekugi ana, seems to speak to age. Thus, as the opinion should fit the data, maybe the aforementioned attributes that raise concern can be explained by a bad polish as you suggest, or a tired sword?

If the sword has been polished through the skin steel, leaving in its wake the softer core steel, I would think this might account for the appearance of the shinogi, the bent ha and kissaki, and the 3mm kasane? We are so far past my confidence level I can only surmise without certitude, and follow up such possible explanations with the obligatory shrug:

I can state with certainty however, that so long as this sword is in your possession, carbinated beverages should remain afraid... very afraid.

katana · 7th June 2011, 08:03 PM

Thank you Chris for your opinion

, I have tried to contact Rich via the moderators, if unsuccessful I will post on the Nihonto forum. It definately would be disappointing if the hardened steel has been 'polished away' ....I'm hoping that it had an rough WW2 polish to make it serviceable.

Kind Regards David

Rich · 7th June 2011, 10:20 PM

I've been under the weather for a while. Looked at you pics and think (?) the discussion is on the right track. Most likely an end of the war sword that has been left to rust and amaturishly cleaned. I see no evidence of hada (grain) or hamon (temper line). Just deep scratches. The shinogi is severly rounded. The nakago is a bit odd; perhaps that level of rust might (?) occur if the hilt had been really soaked and left to rust. The nakago ana (tang holes) are still quite crisp. IMHO, it's not likely to be worth the time, effort or expense to restore. BUT, that is just one guys opinion based on pics. There are several sword groups in the UK. I would suggest you see if you can get in touch with one of them for a hands on opinion. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Rich S

6th June 2011, 04:25 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Chris, important matters first .....the coke bottle is a 2 litre ....not a 3 . I don't do 'things that go bang' (due to UK laws) but certainly sounds fun. If this blade turns out to be Nihonto, I will NOT be doing it again unless it is not particularly valuable (monetary or historically) Nice examples Chris, thank you for sharing. Below are some pics of the nakago ....there does seem to be file marks ...also on the rear edge (top and bottom) some diagonal marks. I have tried again to capture the apparent 'activity' in the blade...but not very successfully. I have briefly 'cleaned' the kissaki with 1200 grit paper (not very well) but it seems to show some 'crispness' to its definition. The shinogi on mine is not as crisp as yours....very slightly rounded, but I think this may be due to poor polishing. There is a small section of the shinogi which is not perfectly in line ......at this same section on the blade there were 'ghost' marks, very unclear, but seem to have been Japanese characters which may have been polished out ....and in doing so affected the line of the shinogi at this point. I have carefully checked for any fatal flaws ....and so far found none ....but then again a proper polish may show these more clearly ?? I , so far, have not contacted Rich yet ....I don't want to waste his time if this blade is not kosher or at least a high probabillity that it is genuine. All the best David . Attached Images

4th June 2011, 10:27 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	WoW ! You guys pay through the nose for Coca Cola ....

5th June 2011, 07:35 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi David, Re: drawing blood, you and I both! Sliced my thumb deep a couple days ago on a tanto I was remounting in koshirae after photographing it. I always look at such acts of carelessness as a sign that I am supposed to keep the blade that draws my blood... a blood sacrifice, if you will. I've cut- tested several contemporary and vintage hunting knives I've sharpened - more as a test of the blade steel and my weak sharpening skills - but never an antique blade or a blade of considerable value. I have however needlessly destroyed more than my share of 2-liter bottles with things that go 'bang.' Anyway, regarding the sword... I am looking forward to seeing photos of the nakago. The patina seems to indicate some real age, as does the presence of three mekugi ana... a puzzle as of yet unsolved, IMO. Have you reached out to Rich yet? He indicates on his website the late-war, a.k.a., "desparation" swords were invariably of poor quality. Scroll down to "End-of-War" Hilts for his description of the type I believe your sword to be. However, as has been said, the nakago seems to indicate otherwise. I did photograph the shinogi on my koto waki, and found that the play of light can result in a photograph in which the shinogi looses a little of that "crispness" of definition so apparent with the naked eye. However, in most of the photos, it looked laser-straight. Here's two photos: The first is of the shinogi on the aforementioned tanto that nearly took my thumb in tribute. The second is of my koto waki (ignore the idiot marks left by a previous owner's attempt to polish the sword). See how crisp the shinogi appears? Anyway, I look forward to seeing pics of the nakago. BTW, Rick is right - you guys do pay a metric f#@&-ton for Coca-Cola! Please tell me at least that's a 3-liter bottle!

7th June 2011, 06:28 PM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi David, Thank you for posting the pics of the nakago. I am at a loss... The patina looks legitimate and old, and as been mentioned, along with the three mekugi ana, seems to speak to age. Thus, as the opinion should fit the data, maybe the aforementioned attributes that raise concern can be explained by a bad polish as you suggest, or a tired sword? If the sword has been polished through the skin steel, leaving in its wake the softer core steel, I would think this might account for the appearance of the shinogi, the bent ha and kissaki, and the 3mm kasane? We are so far past my confidence level I can only surmise without certitude, and follow up such possible explanations with the obligatory shrug: I can state with certainty however, that so long as this sword is in your possession, carbinated beverages should remain afraid... very afraid.

7th June 2011, 08:03 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thank you Chris for your opinion , I have tried to contact Rich via the moderators, if unsuccessful I will post on the Nihonto forum. It definately would be disappointing if the hardened steel has been 'polished away' ....I'm hoping that it had an rough WW2 polish to make it serviceable. Kind Regards David

7th June 2011, 10:20 PM	#7
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I've been under the weather for a while. Looked at you pics and think (?) the discussion is on the right track. Most likely an end of the war sword that has been left to rust and amaturishly cleaned. I see no evidence of hada (grain) or hamon (temper line). Just deep scratches. The shinogi is severly rounded. The nakago is a bit odd; perhaps that level of rust might (?) occur if the hilt had been really soaked and left to rust. The nakago ana (tang holes) are still quite crisp. IMHO, it's not likely to be worth the time, effort or expense to restore. BUT, that is just one guys opinion based on pics. There are several sword groups in the UK. I would suggest you see if you can get in touch with one of them for a hands on opinion. Sorry I can't be of more help. Rich S