Finally worth getting at 5am

Atlantia · 30th May 2011, 12:39 PM

Fantastic! What a thing to find. I was just saying in the display thread about the terrible things people used to do to 'display' old weapons.
welcome to the forums BTW.
Just concertrate on the woodwork. Leave the metal with the nice aged look that it's got (IMHO).

Best
Gene

A.alnakkas · 30th May 2011, 12:45 PM

Such a beauty, congratulations. Welcome to the forum :-)

Post some pictures of the inscription and I think we'll get it translated soon enough.

dooly · 30th May 2011, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Such a beauty, congratulations. Welcome to the forum :-)

Post some pictures of the inscription and I think we'll get it translated soon enough.

Thanks for the warm welcome

i have attached pictures of the text .. hope you can help

dooly · 30th May 2011, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Fantastic! What a thing to find. I was just saying in the display thread about the terrible things people used to do to 'display' old weapons.
welcome to the forums BTW.
Just concertrate on the woodwork. Leave the metal with the nice aged look that it's got (IMHO).

Best
Gene

Whoops sorry .. had to be done when i saw the state of it inside ..

check out the state of the wood when i opened her up

dooly · 30th May 2011, 01:14 PM

More "yuck" photos

Atlantia · 30th May 2011, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dooly

Whoops sorry .. had to be done when i saw the state of it inside ..

check out the state of the wood when i opened her up

Hi Dooly

I know the damage is mostly modern, but often we see repairs and filled areas on these 'ethnic' guns. I would say that you have either the option of replacing the woodwork, or repairing it with infill and replaced areas.
Whats your plan?
Best
Gene

dooly · 30th May 2011, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Dooly

I know the damage is mostly modern, but often we see repairs and filled areas on these 'ethnic' guns. I would say that you have either the option of replacing the woodwork, or repairing it with infill and replaced areas.
Whats your plan?
Best
Gene

Hi .. I do restore my guns .. but i try to be sensitive And the wood work on this one could not be saved .. almost fell to bits in my hands.

I have attached a couple of pictures of a early hammer gun which was found in a farmers shed a few weeks ago .. totally rusted solid and the stock was snapped and rotten .. this is where i am at with it at the moment .. i have decided to "rainbow" the metal on this one and the hammers will be browned .. the stock is in the oversize stage and needs lightning once all the metal work has been fitted .. the wood is steamed beach and will be stained the the correct color once completed .. Luckily the Farmer had stuffed the barrels with oily rags before dumping it in the shed and the barrels are still in proof so hopefully this season it may bag a bird or two for the pot

kahnjar1 · 31st May 2011, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dooly

Hi .. I do restore my guns .. but i try to be sensitive And the wood work on this one could not be saved .. almost fell to bits in my hands.

I have attached a couple of pictures of a early hammer gun which was found in a farmers shed a few weeks ago .. totally rusted solid and the stock was snapped and rotten .. this is where i am at with it at the moment .. i have decided to "rainbow" the metal on this one and the hammers will be browned .. the stock is in the oversize stage and needs lightning once all the metal work has been fitted .. the wood is steamed beach and will be stained the the correct color once completed .. Luckily the Farmer had stuffed the barrels with oily rags before dumping it in the shed and the barrels are still in proof so hopefully this season it may bag a bird or two for the pot

IMHO get rid of the "rainbow". Obviously done with heat. English locks of this age were not as far as I am aware "case coloured", so need to be browned to match the hammers. Similarly all other metal should be browned. Vintage looks about 1880.

kahnjar1 · 31st May 2011, 05:36 AM

Having given my 2c worth above, WELCOME TO THE FORUM. That Islamic pistol looks magnificent, and well done with the restoration of the metal parts. By the looks of it, the woodwork is totally munted but IF it can be rebuilt with careful use of pieces of correct coloured wood and filler, then that IMHO would be preferable to a completely new stock.
Stuart

Jim McDougall · 31st May 2011, 07:42 AM

Welcome Dooly!
Nicely done on photos and showing the progression of your restoration work, which is outstanding and thank you for giving these worn old weapons the chance they deserve to be properly preserved.

The dealer you observed was clearly 'working it!' and I'm glad you got this instead of him

The acid etched script on the barrel is Islamic calligraphy known as 'thuluth' and seen characteristically in the Sudan on weapons during the Mahdiyya period in the latter 19th century. This was also known in Ottoman regions in Egypt and others in degree, though it had been largely been superceded elsewhere in Islamic inscriptions of Qur'anic verse by the Naskhi script.

This appears to be a trade produced flintlock made in the English style and the pistol is mounted in a style which appears much in Balkan style with the sharply angled neck and butt. These were often produced for native consumption , and these type guns were entering Cairo centers, often cheaply made in Leige in the 1870s or so. Apparantly mostly muskets were coming in, but it would seem flintlock pistols did as well in some degree.
The thuluth etching on this barrel suggests the pistol may have been handled during Mahdiyya times (c. 1884-1898) but as these were not commonly used by these forces, it is possible this may have been a special case issue or award.
The absence of the ramrod suggests also Ottoman style in the gun, as with them their pistols' ramrods (suma) were carried on belts.

Probably some interesting history with this one, and quite possibly some intriguing potential as a weapon from Egypt or the Sudan end of the 19th century.

References:
"Firearms of the Islamic World" Robert Elgood, London, 1995, p.224

Other good references regarding the British military pistols;
"British Military Pistols" Robert E. Brooker, 1978

I hope you will be restoring the stock from illustrations of the original as these trade anomalies were by no means standard, and it would be good to see this one kept faithful to the original. The locks were simply copies of the British ones, which were often reused of course.
Your work on the weapon as shown to date is superb!!!

All the best,
Jim

dooly · 31st May 2011, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

IMHO get rid of the "rainbow". Obviously done with heat. English locks of this age were not as far as I am aware "case coloured", so need to be browned to match the hammers. Similarly all other metal should be browned. Vintage looks about 1880.

Yes the rainbow .. was an optional extra i liked .. it came about when i was heating the springs for re-fitting .. you do get a few which were colored at this period but usually top end guns .. the workings are by Stanton & Co .. and the retailer is R.W Richards .. who i have not been able to find (i dont have the London book) but i would also put it about that date

thanks for the comments .. i should post some of my completed projects sometime

rickystl · 31st May 2011, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dooly

Yes the rainbow .. was an optional extra i liked .. it came about when i was heating the springs for re-fitting .. you do get a few which were colored at this period but usually top end guns .. the workings are by Stanton & Co .. and the retailer is R.W Richards .. who i have not been able to find (i dont have the London book) but i would also put it about that date

thanks for the comments .. i should post some of my completed projects sometime

Dooley: Great job refurbishing the metal parts. Well worth a re-stock. By all means, please post photos. I have a Caucasian pistol project just completed that I will post this weekend. And an interesting story with it.

Jim: Thanks for all the GREAT information!!! Rick.

dooly · 30th May 2011, 03:11 PM

Now stripped and initial dip done

dooly · 30th May 2011, 06:57 PM

Well all done bar the barrel .. looks like the lettering was silvered or something .. will think about what to do with it ..

all barricaded now just let the oil soak in and next the stock .. still need to work out if i should make it with a ramrod holder .. what do you think

Nathaniel · 30th May 2011, 07:42 PM

Hello Dooly,

Welcome to the forum!!

Nice post. It is quite interesting to see your documentation of the restoration. It is neat to see metal parts separate from the wooden stock. Thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing how it will progress. I'm curious if you where able to identify the type of wood originally used and what type of wood will you use then for the replacement?

Thanks!

dooly · 30th May 2011, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Hello Dooly,

Welcome to the forum!!

Nice post. It is quite interesting to see your documentation of the restoration. It is neat to see metal parts separate from the wooden stock. Thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing how it will progress. I'm curious if you where able to identify the type of wood originally used and what type of wood will you use then for the replacement?

Thanks!

Thanks . not 100% on the wood as i dont think it was the original stock .. seemed to be a type of hardwood. it may have been made form an old English stock as it is simmiler grain to one of my 1870s shotguns.. for replacement i may try to use one of my old gun stocks .. or steamed beech which i will stain down .. this depends on the ramrod/no ramrod question .. and the thickness of wood required

all the best

Atlantia · 30th May 2011, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dooly

Well all done bar the barrel .. looks like the lettering was silvered or something .. will think about what to do with it ..

all barricaded now just let the oil soak in and next the stock .. still need to work out if i should make it with a ramrod holder .. what do you think

If for instance it's Ottoman, then it may well not have had a ramrod (or have had a short 'false' one). Is there a recess on the original part of the stock in front of the trigger guard?

I'm suprised nobody has come in with an opinion of origin. I was thinking Ottoman?
What have you done so far? Cleaned with an etchant, and browned with heat and oil?

stephen wood · 30th May 2011, 10:55 PM

...I think the writing is Arabic - acid etched thuluth script.

dooly · 30th May 2011, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

If for instance it's Ottoman, then it may well not have had a ramrod (or have had a short 'false' one). Is there a recess on the original part of the stock in front of the trigger guard?

I'm suprised nobody has come in with an opinion of origin. I was thinking Ottoman?
What have you done so far? Cleaned with an etchant, and browned with heat and oil?

hi thanks for the response .. The script is very similer to "ottoman" coins i have in my collection .. but they have been no help to me..
Rust and blue removing solution then heat and plum brown with fast cooling then barricade oiling .. i have also spent the last couple of hours hand blueing the barrel .. to late to do pictures tonight and it is in the proofing oil .. will sort a picture out tomorrow .. then i guess i will start looking for the wood for the stock .. thanks for the response

all the best

30th May 2011, 01:14 PM	#5
dooly Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 15	More "yuck" photos Attached Images

30th May 2011, 03:11 PM	#13
dooly Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 15	Now stripped and initial dip done Attached Images

30th May 2011, 06:57 PM	#14
dooly Member Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 15	Well all done bar the barrel .. looks like the lettering was silvered or something .. will think about what to do with it .. all barricaded now just let the oil soak in and next the stock .. still need to work out if i should make it with a ramrod holder .. what do you think Attached Images

30th May 2011, 12:39 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Fantastic! What a thing to find. I was just saying in the display thread about the terrible things people used to do to 'display' old weapons. welcome to the forums BTW. Just concertrate on the woodwork. Leave the metal with the nice aged look that it's got (IMHO). Best Gene

30th May 2011, 12:45 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Such a beauty, congratulations. Welcome to the forum :-) Post some pictures of the inscription and I think we'll get it translated soon enough.

31st May 2011, 05:36 AM	#9
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Having given my 2c worth above, WELCOME TO THE FORUM. That Islamic pistol looks magnificent, and well done with the restoration of the metal parts. By the looks of it, the woodwork is totally munted but IF it can be rebuilt with careful use of pieces of correct coloured wood and filler, then that IMHO would be preferable to a completely new stock. Stuart

31st May 2011, 07:42 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Welcome Dooly! Nicely done on photos and showing the progression of your restoration work, which is outstanding and thank you for giving these worn old weapons the chance they deserve to be properly preserved. The dealer you observed was clearly 'working it!' and I'm glad you got this instead of him The acid etched script on the barrel is Islamic calligraphy known as 'thuluth' and seen characteristically in the Sudan on weapons during the Mahdiyya period in the latter 19th century. This was also known in Ottoman regions in Egypt and others in degree, though it had been largely been superceded elsewhere in Islamic inscriptions of Qur'anic verse by the Naskhi script. This appears to be a trade produced flintlock made in the English style and the pistol is mounted in a style which appears much in Balkan style with the sharply angled neck and butt. These were often produced for native consumption , and these type guns were entering Cairo centers, often cheaply made in Leige in the 1870s or so. Apparantly mostly muskets were coming in, but it would seem flintlock pistols did as well in some degree. The thuluth etching on this barrel suggests the pistol may have been handled during Mahdiyya times (c. 1884-1898) but as these were not commonly used by these forces, it is possible this may have been a special case issue or award. The absence of the ramrod suggests also Ottoman style in the gun, as with them their pistols' ramrods (suma) were carried on belts. Probably some interesting history with this one, and quite possibly some intriguing potential as a weapon from Egypt or the Sudan end of the 19th century. References: "Firearms of the Islamic World" Robert Elgood, London, 1995, p.224 Other good references regarding the British military pistols; "British Military Pistols" Robert E. Brooker, 1978 I hope you will be restoring the stock from illustrations of the original as these trade anomalies were by no means standard, and it would be good to see this one kept faithful to the original. The locks were simply copies of the British ones, which were often reused of course. Your work on the weapon as shown to date is superb!!! All the best, Jim

30th May 2011, 07:42 PM	#15
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Hello Dooly, Welcome to the forum!! Nice post. It is quite interesting to see your documentation of the restoration. It is neat to see metal parts separate from the wooden stock. Thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing how it will progress. I'm curious if you where able to identify the type of wood originally used and what type of wood will you use then for the replacement? Thanks!

30th May 2011, 10:55 PM	#18
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...I think the writing is Arabic - acid etched thuluth script.