SUASA Copper/Gold or Gold/Copper alloy

asomotif · 5th September 2007, 04:23 PM

Hello forumites,

Does anybody know th eprecentages of copper and gold in Suasa ?
is their a recepy, or was it up to the goldsmith to decide ?

Maybe also a nice thread to put some puctures of Suasa adorned weapons ?
Here is one from my collection.

asomotif · 5th September 2007, 04:26 PM

and one more picture.

asomotif · 5th September 2007, 04:28 PM

VANDOO · 5th September 2007, 09:07 PM

I HAD READ A FORMULA FOR IT SOMEWHERE A FEW YEARS AGO BUT UNFORTUNATELY DON'T REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS NOW OR WHERE I SAW IT.
IT USED OLD COINS AND GAVE THE DENOMINATINS OF THE GOLD COINS AND SILVER COINS AND THE NUMBERS TO BE MELTED DOWN TO FORM SWASSA. I THINK THE COINS WERE DUTCH, IT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE TO FIND OUT THE WEIGHT AND PURITY OF THE COINS USED AND THEN USE GOLD AND SILVER INSTEAD OF OLD COINS AS IT WAS DONE IN THE PAST WHEN THE COINS WERE READILY AVAILABLE. IF I RUN ACROSS IT IN THE FUTURE AGAIN I WILL LET YOU KNOW, PERHAPS SOMEONE ELSE MAY REMEMBER AS I DID SHARE THE INFO WITH SOME.GOOD LUCK

Tim Simmons · 5th September 2007, 09:13 PM

low quality really. http://www.jewelryexpert.com/articles/Pinchbeck.htm

VVV · 5th September 2007, 09:16 PM

Willem,

It's 25% gold, 19% silver and 56% copper.

Michael

David · 5th September 2007, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

low quality really. http://www.jewelryexpert.com/articles/Pinchbeck.htm

From what i can gather from this article "Pinchbeck" doesn't contain any real gold. This is not the case with suassa.

asomotif · 6th September 2007, 09:34 AM

thanks Michael for these acurate numbers !

I am not sure if Suassa should be considered cheap.
Surely gold is more expensive, but with the present copper (56%) prices...

I believe the japanese also use some similar alloys in decorating their tsuba's etc. any info on that?

Battara · 7th September 2007, 09:26 PM

Acutally it depends on the color wanted. VVV is correct for some swassa, others are different depending on if you want orange, red, white'ish, etc. When a friend and I made swassa several years ago, it was roughly 1/3 gold and 2/3 copper with some silver. Some even use zinc for a greenish color, though rare.

Here is an example of what I mean. The orange bands on the hilt are swassa and the orange bands on the scabbard are the ones we made. I did the rest of the scabbard work (the second one I ever made).

t_c · 8th September 2007, 04:54 AM

Here's a good list of Japanese alloys:
Japanese Alloys

asomotif · 10th September 2007, 09:51 AM

Hello Battara,

Nice Moro keris.
Do you have some close ups of the mountings ?

-----

TC,
thanks for the link to the alloys !

Battara · 10th September 2007, 11:09 PM

Thank you.

This is the only other close up I have. It is of the top wranga that I made of burled wood and silver. I made it Maguindanao to match the same type piece and the silver work was inspired by what was already on the swassa hilt bands (to match them in motif).

Enjoy

ThePepperSkull · 25th May 2011, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Willem,

It's 25% gold, 19% silver and 56% copper.

Michael

Very interesting. Does this recipe for suasa vary depending on region, or is this the standard for what we usually see?

A. G. Maisey · 25th May 2011, 07:11 AM

Suasa was made and used over a very wide area at a time when there was no stardardisation of anything across this area.

The component parts of suasa vary.

I have a Lombok or Bali suasa pendok that tests as 14ct.

I have a Palembang suasa pendok that tests as slightly less.

I have a mendak that tests as 10ct.

I have several other examples of suasa that have not been tested and that vary in colour from the ones I have had tested, and from each other.

Gavin Nugent · 25th May 2011, 09:14 AM

Another example as requested.

Gav

kai · 25th May 2011, 09:55 AM

Hello Gavin,

your example would have been referred to as gold, even if it were a fairly low carat alloy. Suasa is supposed to have that copper hue but contain enough gold to avoid getting patinated when handled regularly. Basically, any yellow gold alloy (including "pure" gold) would be considered gold while red gold would be suasa (often at the low end of the carat scale).

Regards,
Kai

Gavin Nugent · 25th May 2011, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gavin,

your example would have been referred to as gold, even if it were a fairly low carat alloy. Suasa is supposed to have that copper hue but contain enough gold to avoid getting patinated when handled regularly. Basically, any yellow gold alloy (including "pure" gold) would be considered gold while red gold would be suasa (often at the low end of the carat scale).

Regards,
Kai

Thanks Kai,

Although there is not the desirable hue as you note, the bottom image, there are 'rusty' copper 'flecks' seen in the image and found on ...what accounts for this? It is found on the bands too...just not enough melting of the alloys together?

This spear also has the same compound by the eye and it is think banding...the copper is in there...so is the gold.....

Gav

kai · 25th May 2011, 10:35 AM

Hello Gavin,

Probably impossible to ascertain from pics of your peurawot. More often than not, this is a sign of gilt construction (on copper or brass) with copper leaching out through imperfections/wear. Maybe you can find any hints under magnification?

The spear looks very much like having gilt bands. In this case the gold seems to be very thin and may have been applied from very thin sheet gold.

Regards,
Kai

Gavin Nugent · 25th May 2011, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gavin,

Probably impossible to ascertain from pics of your peurawot. More often than not, this is a sign of gilt construction (on copper or brass) with copper leaching out through imperfections/wear. Maybe you can find any hints under magnification?

The spear looks very much like having gilt bands. In this case the gold seems to be very thin and may have been applied from very thin sheet gold.

Regards,
Kai

Makes perfect sense. Gilding is not often spoken of from the region.
Here is a gilt silver over brass Sumatran box I have.

Thanks

Gav

VVV · 25th May 2011, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

Very interesting. Does this recipe for suasa vary depending on region, or is this the standard for what we usually see?

My recipe was for Aceh, the same region as Willem's rencong comes from.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 25th May 2011, 02:57 PM

Gav, gilding was very common in Jawa and Bali, and is still available in Jawa. I'm not talking gold plate, I'm talking fire gilding.I don't know about Sumatera.

Gavin Nugent · 25th May 2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Gav, gilding was very common in Jawa and Bali, and is still available in Jawa. I'm not talking gold plate, I'm talking fire gilding.I don't know about Sumatera.

Indeed Alan, many things are gilded or painted in gold and other bright colours within Bali, Java I can not speak of.
Mainland SEA I see it is quite common in history although mostly around religion but very seldom have I seen other regions of SEA spoken of regarding gilding of any sort.
Any digression in from suasa to gilding from those more learned in the subjects.

Gav

A. G. Maisey · 25th May 2011, 03:48 PM

Gav, when gold is painted onto wood or other surfaces in Jawa and Bali, we refer to it as "prada" (pron. "prodo"). We use the same term for gold leaf applied over wood, whether it is the modern plastic gold, or traditional gold leaf.

I am not referring to this in my earlier post.

I am referring to fire gilding

http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nena...ilding-9-3.htm

Gavin Nugent · 25th May 2011, 04:01 PM

Thanks Alan,

I have never seen the art done first hand and I am not sure I would want to unless it was done behind glass.
I did read a little about this method when researching the gold retained on the late 16th century Khanda/Patissa in my collections. it seems is was very common in old Hindu India, likely I would guess how it came down in the Java and Bali.

I'd love to see more study pieces from the regions.

Gav

Battara · 25th May 2011, 06:06 PM

The problem with traditional gilding is that mercury is used.

It vaporizes when heat is applied and gold bonds into the base metal. It is thick compared to gold plating.

Alan is right in that the recipe for suassa varies between regions and even between smiths, depending upon the hue needed.

A. G. Maisey · 26th May 2011, 02:04 AM

Yes, the mercury is a problem.

However, the one remaining man in Solo who still does this work is by all reports at least 80+ years old --- and he looks more than that.

It reminds me a bit of Empu Suparman and his warangan work. He used to grind up the warangan on the same mortar and pestle that his wife used to prepare spices for use in cooking.

But it wasn't the arsenic that killed him it was tobacco.

David · 26th May 2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Gavin,

your example would have been referred to as gold, even if it were a fairly low carat alloy. Suasa is supposed to have that copper hue but contain enough gold to avoid getting patinated when handled regularly. Basically, any yellow gold alloy (including "pure" gold) would be considered gold while red gold would be suasa (often at the low end of the carat scale).

Regards,
Kai

I am afraid that your judgement may not be accurate based solely on this photograph Kai. If the image isn't properly white balances hues can rage wildly.

A. G. Maisey · 26th May 2011, 09:43 PM

Yep. The camera lies. And since we got digicams and Photoshop, a lot more than it ever did previously.

kai · 28th May 2011, 03:42 AM

Hello David,

Quote:

I am afraid that your judgement may not be accurate based solely on this photograph Kai. If the image isn't properly white balances hues can rage wildly.

Sure, but do you see any hints for wrong balance settings here?

I have seen a few more pics of these pieces and am sure Gavin would correct us if our speculations would be off balance...

Regards,
Kai

Gavin Nugent · 28th May 2011, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello David,

Sure, but do you see any hints for wrong balance settings here?

I have seen a few more pics of these pieces and am sure Gavin would correct us if our speculations would be off balance...

Regards,
Kai

As far as photography goes I only ever photoshopped two listings, that being the Sadap and the exotic SEA Hudiedao and I wasn't happy with either adjustments, all other photos presented here or on my site all natural via Sony :-).

I have looked close at both pieces and they share the same hues and contrast when revolved in the light. What might be considered copperish in one light, roll it another 1/2 and inch and it carries a gold hue. So I had to go a step further and I gave the spear wrapping a very good hard scratch test with a sharp knife to one edge and it was gold at every scratch so either is it a full gold/copper alloy compound or it is a brass wrapping with a gilding that has a copper undertone to it....I feel the former as the aspects of copper showing through are not restricted to copper showing through on wear points....

Your further thoughts guys...

5th September 2007, 04:23 PM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,237	SUASA Copper/Gold or Gold/Copper alloy Hello forumites, Does anybody know th eprecentages of copper and gold in Suasa ? is their a recepy, or was it up to the goldsmith to decide ? Maybe also a nice thread to put some puctures of Suasa adorned weapons ? Here is one from my collection. Attached Images

5th September 2007, 04:26 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,237	and one more picture. Attached Images

5th September 2007, 04:28 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,237	oops wrong fourm / should be on general discussion

7th September 2007, 09:26 PM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Acutally it depends on the color wanted. VVV is correct for some swassa, others are different depending on if you want orange, red, white'ish, etc. When a friend and I made swassa several years ago, it was roughly 1/3 gold and 2/3 copper with some silver. Some even use zinc for a greenish color, though rare. Here is an example of what I mean. The orange bands on the hilt are swassa and the orange bands on the scabbard are the ones we made. I did the rest of the scabbard work (the second one I ever made). Attached Images Last edited by Battara; 7th September 2007 at 09:40 PM.

10th September 2007, 11:09 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Thank you. This is the only other close up I have. It is of the top wranga that I made of burled wood and silver. I made it Maguindanao to match the same type piece and the silver work was inspired by what was already on the swassa hilt bands (to match them in motif). Enjoy Attached Images

5th September 2007, 09:07 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAD READ A FORMULA FOR IT SOMEWHERE A FEW YEARS AGO BUT UNFORTUNATELY DON'T REMEMBER WHAT IT WAS NOW OR WHERE I SAW IT. IT USED OLD COINS AND GAVE THE DENOMINATINS OF THE GOLD COINS AND SILVER COINS AND THE NUMBERS TO BE MELTED DOWN TO FORM SWASSA. I THINK THE COINS WERE DUTCH, IT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE TO FIND OUT THE WEIGHT AND PURITY OF THE COINS USED AND THEN USE GOLD AND SILVER INSTEAD OF OLD COINS AS IT WAS DONE IN THE PAST WHEN THE COINS WERE READILY AVAILABLE. IF I RUN ACROSS IT IN THE FUTURE AGAIN I WILL LET YOU KNOW, PERHAPS SOMEONE ELSE MAY REMEMBER AS I DID SHARE THE INFO WITH SOME.GOOD LUCK

5th September 2007, 09:13 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	low quality really. http://www.jewelryexpert.com/articles/Pinchbeck.htm

5th September 2007, 09:16 PM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Willem, It's 25% gold, 19% silver and 56% copper. Michael

6th September 2007, 09:34 AM	#8
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,237	thanks Michael for these acurate numbers ! I am not sure if Suassa should be considered cheap. Surely gold is more expensive, but with the present copper (56%) prices... I believe the japanese also use some similar alloys in decorating their tsuba's etc. any info on that?

8th September 2007, 04:54 AM	#10
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Here's a good list of Japanese alloys: Japanese Alloys

10th September 2007, 09:51 AM	#11
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,237	Hello Battara, Nice Moro keris. Do you have some close ups of the mountings ? ----- TC, thanks for the link to the alloys !

25th May 2011, 07:11 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Suasa was made and used over a very wide area at a time when there was no stardardisation of anything across this area. The component parts of suasa vary. I have a Lombok or Bali suasa pendok that tests as 14ct. I have a Palembang suasa pendok that tests as slightly less. I have a mendak that tests as 10ct. I have several other examples of suasa that have not been tested and that vary in colour from the ones I have had tested, and from each other.

25th May 2011, 09:14 AM	#15
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	another Another example as requested. Gav Attached Images

25th May 2011, 09:55 AM	#16
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Gavin, your example would have been referred to as gold, even if it were a fairly low carat alloy. Suasa is supposed to have that copper hue but contain enough gold to avoid getting patinated when handled regularly. Basically, any yellow gold alloy (including "pure" gold) would be considered gold while red gold would be suasa (often at the low end of the carat scale). Regards, Kai

25th May 2011, 10:35 AM	#18
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Gavin, Probably impossible to ascertain from pics of your peurawot. More often than not, this is a sign of gilt construction (on copper or brass) with copper leaching out through imperfections/wear. Maybe you can find any hints under magnification? The spear looks very much like having gilt bands. In this case the gold seems to be very thin and may have been applied from very thin sheet gold. Regards, Kai

25th May 2011, 02:57 PM	#21
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Gav, gilding was very common in Jawa and Bali, and is still available in Jawa. I'm not talking gold plate, I'm talking fire gilding.I don't know about Sumatera.

25th May 2011, 03:48 PM	#23
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Gav, when gold is painted onto wood or other surfaces in Jawa and Bali, we refer to it as "prada" (pron. "prodo"). We use the same term for gold leaf applied over wood, whether it is the modern plastic gold, or traditional gold leaf. I am not referring to this in my earlier post. I am referring to fire gilding http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nena...ilding-9-3.htm

25th May 2011, 04:01 PM	#24
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Alan, I have never seen the art done first hand and I am not sure I would want to unless it was done behind glass. I did read a little about this method when researching the gold retained on the late 16th century Khanda/Patissa in my collections. it seems is was very common in old Hindu India, likely I would guess how it came down in the Java and Bali. I'd love to see more study pieces from the regions. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 25th May 2011 at 04:22 PM.

25th May 2011, 06:06 PM	#25
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	The problem with traditional gilding is that mercury is used. It vaporizes when heat is applied and gold bonds into the base metal. It is thick compared to gold plating. Alan is right in that the recipe for suassa varies between regions and even between smiths, depending upon the hue needed.

26th May 2011, 02:04 AM	#26
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes, the mercury is a problem. However, the one remaining man in Solo who still does this work is by all reports at least 80+ years old --- and he looks more than that. It reminds me a bit of Empu Suparman and his warangan work. He used to grind up the warangan on the same mortar and pestle that his wife used to prepare spices for use in cooking. But it wasn't the arsenic that killed him it was tobacco.

26th May 2011, 09:43 PM	#28
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yep. The camera lies. And since we got digicams and Photoshop, a lot more than it ever did previously.