Help please. Japanese Gunto (Genuine ? ) with battlefield scabbard.

katana · 25th May 2011, 06:52 PM

Hi Chris

,
I totally agree that the scabbard and fitting are low quality and typical of those late in WW2.
However, the blade is much better quality and seems a total mismatch...whether it is due to necessity during the war or later ...

The very tip of the kissaki is slightly bent (the picture makes it look larger) but is still extremely sharp and well defined..... and do not want to try to straighten it as I am certain it would snap. The tip is also very thin where it mets the spine due to the contination of the Ihori (inverted v profiled spine)The edge section you mentioned is also quite small. I am not saying this blade is Nihonto but does seem better than some other gunto I have seen.
The late war blades were often made from sub-standard steel and produced rapidly, so manufacturing standards dropped...it was a time of desperation, so do not believe that this blade is one of those.

I have only seen a few gunto but do not recall any of them having the Ihori type spine....just a standard flat one.

Thank you Battara for your continual input

, I too think that the 3 ana points to a 'previous' life. I had thought that all nihonto were signed ...sounds alittle more promising

Kind Regards David

laEspadaAncha · 25th May 2011, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I have only seen a few gunto but do not recall any of them having the Ihori type spine...

Hi David,

FWIW, all three kai gunto I have owned (only one of which is still in my collection) had ihori mune.

Of these, two were of pre-war production and the other had a mei and nengo dating it to 1943.

Regards,

Chris

laEspadaAncha · 25th May 2011, 07:17 PM

Re: the presence of mei / signatures, of my two nihonto, only one is signed. The other, a beautiful Koto Bizen Wakizashi, is mumei. FWIW, this latter example has gunto koshirae.

However, I've not encountered an heirloom blade in the late-war leather-covered mounting before.

katana · 26th May 2011, 09:14 PM

Hi Chris,
I have drawn around the blade (onto paper) and following how to measure the blade here...
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/measure.htm

Have come to discover some interesting facts

The blade thickness (Kasane) is approx just a tiny bit more than 3mm (3.03mm = 1 bu)

The blade width (mihaba) is approx, but not less than 30mm (30.3 mm = 1 sun )

The kissaki to yokote is also approx 30mm (1 sun)
The Nagasa is 645mm ...so greater than 2 Shaku , therefore a Katana. I think I'm right in saying the length is 2 shaku 1 sun 3 bu ?
The tang (Nakago) is 23cms

The Sor (curvature) is Torrii Sori (curvature at centre)
It seems that many of the dimensions follow the 'old' measurements.

I have also, I believe, found what the Hada (if indeed it is hada) is...it looks to be similar to Konuka
http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_hada-1.html

Interestingly, it is mentioned that Hizen blades are known for this hada. When searching info on Hizen, it is stated that many have 'straight' hamon ...which mine appears to have. Several of the Hizen katana blades do look very similar (can't post as they are for sale)

Also Gunto blades were apparently 6mm or more (blade thickness) and 'clumsy'. This blade does not match that description.

Kind Regards David

Battara · 26th May 2011, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Re: the presence of mei / signatures, of my two nihonto, only one is signed. The other, a beautiful Koto Bizen Wakizashi, is mumei. FWIW, this latter example has gunto koshirae.

However, I've not encountered an heirloom blade in the late-war leather-covered mounting before.

Actually I have, and even some in gunto or kai-gunto mounts.

Also, ask Rich S - he would be the best source on these pieces.

laEspadaAncha · 27th May 2011, 02:13 AM

Hi David,

While not by any means a statistically valid sampling, I nonetheless measured the kasane on my kai gunto and two nihonto (I had not previously taken this measurement). Of the two nihonto, one is the aforementioned Koto Bizen Wakizashi, and the other is a rather long Shinshinto katana made by a ranked smith. The kasane of the former measured approx. 5.6-5.7 mm, the latter measured nearly 7mm. By comparison, the kasane on my remaining kai gunto (dated 1943) measured approx. 5.9 mm.

I do agree that every gunto blade I can recall handling (you encounter a lot of WWII "bringbacks" here in San Diego) were of similar thickness. I sure don't recall having handled any gunto as thin as yours.

I tend to look at these as if I was evaluating them as a potential acquisition... I thus look for anything that might be of concern to me. With regards to this example, in addition to the bent ha and kissaki, I might be concerned by what appear to be visible forging marks on the blade - both on the ji and the shinogi-ji - and by the almost meandering appearance of the shinogi (or are these artifacts of the photographs?)

Please understand though, my exposure is admittedly limited, and I hesitate to even consider myself a "student" of nihonto.

When time allows, could you post macro photos of both the nakago and the window resulting from your light polish?

If you can visible identify the hada and hamon, you are on the right track, and as you have mentioned, these should give you some insight into the origin and age of your blade.

Like Jose suggested, Rich S. is our resident expert... and I haven't hesitated to shoot him a PM in the past.

Of course, he may very well suggest you post it on NMB, which is IMO the foremost resource on nihonto on the web, with a global community of nihonto collectors (including more than a few in Japan) who won't hesitate to assist you with further identification. Should you decide to post it there, please let us know what you find out!

katana · 27th May 2011, 08:24 PM

Hi Chris,
thank you for your input

. I have tried to 'capture' the hada but it seems almost impossible ....it is very subtle. I have posted my poor efforts below. I am amazed as to the relative rigidity of the blade , there is flex ..but I would normally expect much more flexibility from a sword blade just over 3mm thick.
It seems that many of the scratches were caused by sharpening (crudely) ...I believe (by patina) that this sharpening may have occured 'in the field'. The shinogi, is very regular so must be the photos. The forging marks are scratches (the ji and the shinogi-ji ) they look worse than they actually are (magnified picture)

Kind Regards David

laEspadaAncha · 29th May 2011, 08:13 AM

Hi David,

Thanks for posting these additional photos...

The scratches on the surface look much more superficial in these photos than in the earlier pictures. The shinogi, while it does appear regular, still seems to lack a certain "crispness" I am accustomed to seeing in shinogi-zukuri nihonto. Again, this observation comes with the caveat that my exposure is rather limited. I also recognize this may be simply a result of the photographs. I took a couple photos of the shinogi of one of my own earlier today. Tomorrow I will download them and see if they appear different through a lens then they do to the naked eye.

Also, if you're so inclined, could you take some similar photos of the nakago/tang? It would be nice to get an up-close look at the patina and the file marks if they are visible.

26th May 2011, 09:14 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Chris, I have drawn around the blade (onto paper) and following how to measure the blade here... http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/measure.htm Have come to discover some interesting facts The blade thickness (Kasane) is approx just a tiny bit more than 3mm (3.03mm = 1 bu) The blade width (mihaba) is approx, but not less than 30mm (30.3 mm = 1 sun ) The kissaki to yokote is also approx 30mm (1 sun) The Nagasa is 645mm ...so greater than 2 Shaku , therefore a Katana. I think I'm right in saying the length is 2 shaku 1 sun 3 bu ? The tang (Nakago) is 23cms The Sor (curvature) is Torrii Sori (curvature at centre) It seems that many of the dimensions follow the 'old' measurements. I have also, I believe, found what the Hada (if indeed it is hada) is...it looks to be similar to Konuka http://www.ncjsc.org/gloss_hada-1.html Interestingly, it is mentioned that Hizen blades are known for this hada. When searching info on Hizen, it is stated that many have 'straight' hamon ...which mine appears to have. Several of the Hizen katana blades do look very similar (can't post as they are for sale) Also Gunto blades were apparently 6mm or more (blade thickness) and 'clumsy'. This blade does not match that description. Kind Regards David Last edited by katana; 26th May 2011 at 09:37 PM.

27th May 2011, 08:24 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Chris, thank you for your input . I have tried to 'capture' the hada but it seems almost impossible ....it is very subtle. I have posted my poor efforts below. I am amazed as to the relative rigidity of the blade , there is flex ..but I would normally expect much more flexibility from a sword blade just over 3mm thick. It seems that many of the scratches were caused by sharpening (crudely) ...I believe (by patina) that this sharpening may have occured 'in the field'. The shinogi, is very regular so must be the photos. The forging marks are scratches (the ji and the shinogi-ji ) they look worse than they actually are (magnified picture) Kind Regards David Attached Images

25th May 2011, 06:52 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Chris , I totally agree that the scabbard and fitting are low quality and typical of those late in WW2. However, the blade is much better quality and seems a total mismatch...whether it is due to necessity during the war or later ... The very tip of the kissaki is slightly bent (the picture makes it look larger) but is still extremely sharp and well defined..... and do not want to try to straighten it as I am certain it would snap. The tip is also very thin where it mets the spine due to the contination of the Ihori (inverted v profiled spine)The edge section you mentioned is also quite small. I am not saying this blade is Nihonto but does seem better than some other gunto I have seen. The late war blades were often made from sub-standard steel and produced rapidly, so manufacturing standards dropped...it was a time of desperation, so do not believe that this blade is one of those. I have only seen a few gunto but do not recall any of them having the Ihori type spine....just a standard flat one. Thank you Battara for your continual input , I too think that the 3 ana points to a 'previous' life. I had thought that all nihonto were signed ...sounds alittle more promising Kind Regards David

25th May 2011, 07:17 PM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Re: the presence of mei / signatures, of my two nihonto, only one is signed. The other, a beautiful Koto Bizen Wakizashi, is mumei. FWIW, this latter example has gunto koshirae. However, I've not encountered an heirloom blade in the late-war leather-covered mounting before.

27th May 2011, 02:13 AM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi David, While not by any means a statistically valid sampling, I nonetheless measured the kasane on my kai gunto and two nihonto (I had not previously taken this measurement). Of the two nihonto, one is the aforementioned Koto Bizen Wakizashi, and the other is a rather long Shinshinto katana made by a ranked smith. The kasane of the former measured approx. 5.6-5.7 mm, the latter measured nearly 7mm. By comparison, the kasane on my remaining kai gunto (dated 1943) measured approx. 5.9 mm. I do agree that every gunto blade I can recall handling (you encounter a lot of WWII "bringbacks" here in San Diego) were of similar thickness. I sure don't recall having handled any gunto as thin as yours. I tend to look at these as if I was evaluating them as a potential acquisition... I thus look for anything that might be of concern to me. With regards to this example, in addition to the bent ha and kissaki, I might be concerned by what appear to be visible forging marks on the blade - both on the ji and the shinogi-ji - and by the almost meandering appearance of the shinogi (or are these artifacts of the photographs?) Please understand though, my exposure is admittedly limited, and I hesitate to even consider myself a "student" of nihonto. When time allows, could you post macro photos of both the nakago and the window resulting from your light polish? If you can visible identify the hada and hamon, you are on the right track, and as you have mentioned, these should give you some insight into the origin and age of your blade. Like Jose suggested, Rich S. is our resident expert... and I haven't hesitated to shoot him a PM in the past. Of course, he may very well suggest you post it on NMB, which is IMO the foremost resource on nihonto on the web, with a global community of nihonto collectors (including more than a few in Japan) who won't hesitate to assist you with further identification. Should you decide to post it there, please let us know what you find out!

29th May 2011, 08:13 AM	#8
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi David, Thanks for posting these additional photos... The scratches on the surface look much more superficial in these photos than in the earlier pictures. The shinogi, while it does appear regular, still seems to lack a certain "crispness" I am accustomed to seeing in shinogi-zukuri nihonto. Again, this observation comes with the caveat that my exposure is rather limited. I also recognize this may be simply a result of the photographs. I took a couple photos of the shinogi of one of my own earlier today. Tomorrow I will download them and see if they appear different through a lens then they do to the naked eye. Also, if you're so inclined, could you take some similar photos of the nakago/tang? It would be nice to get an up-close look at the patina and the file marks if they are visible.