Need suggestions for keris certification format

Amuk Murugul · 23rd May 2011, 02:57 AM

Hullo everybody,

BAAAAD idea......
Shades of HEGEMONY, 'closed-shop' etc!
Certainly WON'T stop fraud and corruption.
Will tend to commercialize the keris even more.
May create a 'new' class of 'kerisologists' who, in the extreme, may know nothing about the keris, but will certainly have the money to buy the 'certified' 'best'.

It reminds me of what the English language was like before the advent of the Oxford. The initial Oxford took about five decades to complete, incorporating contributions from individuals and interested parties. It became 'gospel', even 'static' for a period of time; anything not in it just 'wasn't English'.
However, even IT had to evolve to cope with the living language. It is continues to evolve...
Will a 'certification' system for the keris have the facility to evolve? How will it cope with items which do not fall within its current frame of reference but deemed to be of significance (e.g 'diluar pakem', palawija)?

Best,

rasjid · 23rd May 2011, 06:40 AM

As we all know, that Tangguh is the hardest part for certification because its an assumption and there is no clear and standard way available. (a never ending story).

Keris certification is possible for newly made keris. So, if Neo prepared to scale down his project, we can start the discussion.

I personally believe that there are current maker around who can make "Good" Keris for us (plus your luck, of course... )

A. G. Maisey · 23rd May 2011, 08:59 AM

Rasjid, if we were to look at recent or new pieces, it would need to be in the nature of an appraisal, not a certification.

Since new and recent pieces are in the nature of art works, what this would amount to would be a situation where a maker's work was given an appraisal that resulted in it being declared good, bad or indifferent --- or maybe excellent.

Can you imagine the implications that would apply if this were to be the case?

Art works in other fields do not apply this type of appraisal, it is applied by the awarding of prizes in art competitions, but very often, the very best artists and sculptors do not submit their work to judging in a competition because they tend to consider the judges of these competitions to be lacking in the talent necessary to pass judgement on their work.

When all is said and done, it is the buyer who decides what an art work is worth and why it is worth a particular sum, but if the buyer does not wish to meet the artist's demands, then the artist need not accept his commission.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see any value in any of these appraisal or certification schemes for anybody except the dealers, especially the high level dealers. Conversely, all I can see for the inexperienced collector is a further endorsement of a market that is already riddled with deception.This would be just another opportunity for deception.

I think I understand what Neo has put forward, and in all honesty, if it could be implemented it would be a wonderful advance. Regrettably, I have very severe doubts that such a system could ever be implemented upon any footing at all, anywhere. The problem is money:- wherever money is involved, no matter how high minded the certifiers or appraisers may be when the scheme begins, it will inevitably be corrupted sooner or later.

Call me cynical if you will, but I have very good reasons for this cynicism.

rasjid · 23rd May 2011, 09:46 AM

Alan, I'm thinking of Certification (Certificate Authenticity by the maker) not Appraisal for the Keris.
The Certification may be consist of:
1. Dhapur
2. Pamor
3. Material used (pamor and slorok)
4. Name/date maker's name.
5. Picture of pawakan/ sor soran, etc
and others

So hopefully for the next 200years our great great grandsons still keep it and nobody will argue about the Keris we are having today..... hopefully.

rasjid

A. G. Maisey · 23rd May 2011, 10:07 AM

OK, that's a bit different.

Pauzan used to do a signed certificate that he issued with his keris, but some other makers during the 1980's and '90's considered that this was a break with tradition and held that anybody who was entitled to know (by virtue of knowledge and experience) would know who had made a keris. The piece of paper was not necessary.

However, this issue of a certificate by a maker is absolutely different to what Neo was proposing at the outset.

23rd May 2011, 02:57 AM	#1
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo everybody, BAAAAD idea...... Shades of HEGEMONY, 'closed-shop' etc! Certainly WON'T stop fraud and corruption. Will tend to commercialize the keris even more. May create a 'new' class of 'kerisologists' who, in the extreme, may know nothing about the keris, but will certainly have the money to buy the 'certified' 'best'. It reminds me of what the English language was like before the advent of the Oxford. The initial Oxford took about five decades to complete, incorporating contributions from individuals and interested parties. It became 'gospel', even 'static' for a period of time; anything not in it just 'wasn't English'. However, even IT had to evolve to cope with the living language. It is continues to evolve... Will a 'certification' system for the keris have the facility to evolve? How will it cope with items which do not fall within its current frame of reference but deemed to be of significance (e.g 'diluar pakem', palawija)? Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 23rd May 2011 at 03:44 AM.

23rd May 2011, 08:59 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	Rasjid, if we were to look at recent or new pieces, it would need to be in the nature of an appraisal, not a certification. Since new and recent pieces are in the nature of art works, what this would amount to would be a situation where a maker's work was given an appraisal that resulted in it being declared good, bad or indifferent --- or maybe excellent. Can you imagine the implications that would apply if this were to be the case? Art works in other fields do not apply this type of appraisal, it is applied by the awarding of prizes in art competitions, but very often, the very best artists and sculptors do not submit their work to judging in a competition because they tend to consider the judges of these competitions to be lacking in the talent necessary to pass judgement on their work. When all is said and done, it is the buyer who decides what an art work is worth and why it is worth a particular sum, but if the buyer does not wish to meet the artist's demands, then the artist need not accept his commission. I'm sorry, but I cannot see any value in any of these appraisal or certification schemes for anybody except the dealers, especially the high level dealers. Conversely, all I can see for the inexperienced collector is a further endorsement of a market that is already riddled with deception.This would be just another opportunity for deception. I think I understand what Neo has put forward, and in all honesty, if it could be implemented it would be a wonderful advance. Regrettably, I have very severe doubts that such a system could ever be implemented upon any footing at all, anywhere. The problem is money:- wherever money is involved, no matter how high minded the certifiers or appraisers may be when the scheme begins, it will inevitably be corrupted sooner or later. Call me cynical if you will, but I have very good reasons for this cynicism. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 23rd May 2011 at 09:27 AM. Reason: clarification

23rd May 2011, 06:40 AM	#2
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	As we all know, that Tangguh is the hardest part for certification because its an assumption and there is no clear and standard way available. (a never ending story). Keris certification is possible for newly made keris. So, if Neo prepared to scale down his project, we can start the discussion. I personally believe that there are current maker around who can make "Good" Keris for us (plus your luck, of course... )

23rd May 2011, 09:46 AM	#4
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Alan, I'm thinking of Certification (Certificate Authenticity by the maker) not Appraisal for the Keris. The Certification may be consist of: 1. Dhapur 2. Pamor 3. Material used (pamor and slorok) 4. Name/date maker's name. 5. Picture of pawakan/ sor soran, etc and others So hopefully for the next 200years our great great grandsons still keep it and nobody will argue about the Keris we are having today..... hopefully. rasjid

23rd May 2011, 10:07 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,017	OK, that's a bit different. Pauzan used to do a signed certificate that he issued with his keris, but some other makers during the 1980's and '90's considered that this was a break with tradition and held that anybody who was entitled to know (by virtue of knowledge and experience) would know who had made a keris. The piece of paper was not necessary. However, this issue of a certificate by a maker is absolutely different to what Neo was proposing at the outset.