Need suggestions for keris certification format

David · 22nd May 2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

We also discussed about possible identification devices to be attached to the keris in order to match it with the certificate. One idea would be to laser-engrave some number on the pesi, but I for one would object to this severely as it is tampering with a historical piece. Feel free to discuss alternatives that you feel is more suitable for this purpose.

I agree that this is a very, VERY bad idea. I even hate when museums painr numbers on.
Frankly Neo, certification something that i have little interest in and don't particularly see as a practical or particularly useful thing, but others may well have different opinions on this. I have never bought a keris for it's storied history. Only the ones that "speak" directly to me with no written certificate of approval...

Gustav · 22nd May 2011, 07:51 PM

Well, I think, it looks like a welcome possibility to gain some additional income in this chain. Now between keris makers and keris dealers we would have also keris certificators. Yet of course they would stay out of the business and remain straight!

As I understand, this idea is by no means new. Yet regarding the missing basement of accessible knowledge and detailed information compare to Nihonto, and also some other factors, it would be just a big bluff, and would led to new malpractices.

A. G. Maisey · 23rd May 2011, 01:06 AM

Neo, from your post I believe that I can safely assume that you, yourself , are an Indonesian, living in Indonesia, and are a part of a keris study group in Indonesia, possibly in Jakarta.

As such, I believe it is reasonable for me to assume that you have a good understanding of Indonesian moral values and the characteristics of Indonesian society, and most particularly Javanese society.

May I most respectfully suggest that you consider the implications of establishment of any Indonesian group or organisation that set out to provide keris certification. Most especially you should consider this from the point of view of a dealer.

Similarly, perhaps you may care to consider the benefits to a dealer of an accepted structure that under-pinned the collection of the keris.

I believe you will already have the knowledge and experience necessary to answer your own question.

Amuk Murugul · 23rd May 2011, 02:57 AM

Hullo everybody,

BAAAAD idea......
Shades of HEGEMONY, 'closed-shop' etc!
Certainly WON'T stop fraud and corruption.
Will tend to commercialize the keris even more.
May create a 'new' class of 'kerisologists' who, in the extreme, may know nothing about the keris, but will certainly have the money to buy the 'certified' 'best'.

It reminds me of what the English language was like before the advent of the Oxford. The initial Oxford took about five decades to complete, incorporating contributions from individuals and interested parties. It became 'gospel', even 'static' for a period of time; anything not in it just 'wasn't English'.
However, even IT had to evolve to cope with the living language. It is continues to evolve...
Will a 'certification' system for the keris have the facility to evolve? How will it cope with items which do not fall within its current frame of reference but deemed to be of significance (e.g 'diluar pakem', palawija)?

Best,

rasjid · 23rd May 2011, 06:40 AM

As we all know, that Tangguh is the hardest part for certification because its an assumption and there is no clear and standard way available. (a never ending story).

Keris certification is possible for newly made keris. So, if Neo prepared to scale down his project, we can start the discussion.

I personally believe that there are current maker around who can make "Good" Keris for us (plus your luck, of course... )

A. G. Maisey · 23rd May 2011, 08:59 AM

Rasjid, if we were to look at recent or new pieces, it would need to be in the nature of an appraisal, not a certification.

Since new and recent pieces are in the nature of art works, what this would amount to would be a situation where a maker's work was given an appraisal that resulted in it being declared good, bad or indifferent --- or maybe excellent.

Can you imagine the implications that would apply if this were to be the case?

Art works in other fields do not apply this type of appraisal, it is applied by the awarding of prizes in art competitions, but very often, the very best artists and sculptors do not submit their work to judging in a competition because they tend to consider the judges of these competitions to be lacking in the talent necessary to pass judgement on their work.

When all is said and done, it is the buyer who decides what an art work is worth and why it is worth a particular sum, but if the buyer does not wish to meet the artist's demands, then the artist need not accept his commission.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see any value in any of these appraisal or certification schemes for anybody except the dealers, especially the high level dealers. Conversely, all I can see for the inexperienced collector is a further endorsement of a market that is already riddled with deception.This would be just another opportunity for deception.

I think I understand what Neo has put forward, and in all honesty, if it could be implemented it would be a wonderful advance. Regrettably, I have very severe doubts that such a system could ever be implemented upon any footing at all, anywhere. The problem is money:- wherever money is involved, no matter how high minded the certifiers or appraisers may be when the scheme begins, it will inevitably be corrupted sooner or later.

Call me cynical if you will, but I have very good reasons for this cynicism.

rasjid · 23rd May 2011, 09:46 AM

Alan, I'm thinking of Certification (Certificate Authenticity by the maker) not Appraisal for the Keris.
The Certification may be consist of:
1. Dhapur
2. Pamor
3. Material used (pamor and slorok)
4. Name/date maker's name.
5. Picture of pawakan/ sor soran, etc
and others

So hopefully for the next 200years our great great grandsons still keep it and nobody will argue about the Keris we are having today..... hopefully.

rasjid

22nd May 2011, 07:51 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Well, I think, it looks like a welcome possibility to gain some additional income in this chain. Now between keris makers and keris dealers we would have also keris certificators. Yet of course they would stay out of the business and remain straight! As I understand, this idea is by no means new. Yet regarding the missing basement of accessible knowledge and detailed information compare to Nihonto, and also some other factors, it would be just a big bluff, and would led to new malpractices. Last edited by Gustav; 22nd May 2011 at 10:12 PM. Reason: wrong spelling

23rd May 2011, 02:57 AM	#4
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 473	Hullo everybody, BAAAAD idea...... Shades of HEGEMONY, 'closed-shop' etc! Certainly WON'T stop fraud and corruption. Will tend to commercialize the keris even more. May create a 'new' class of 'kerisologists' who, in the extreme, may know nothing about the keris, but will certainly have the money to buy the 'certified' 'best'. It reminds me of what the English language was like before the advent of the Oxford. The initial Oxford took about five decades to complete, incorporating contributions from individuals and interested parties. It became 'gospel', even 'static' for a period of time; anything not in it just 'wasn't English'. However, even IT had to evolve to cope with the living language. It is continues to evolve... Will a 'certification' system for the keris have the facility to evolve? How will it cope with items which do not fall within its current frame of reference but deemed to be of significance (e.g 'diluar pakem', palawija)? Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 23rd May 2011 at 03:44 AM.

23rd May 2011, 08:59 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Rasjid, if we were to look at recent or new pieces, it would need to be in the nature of an appraisal, not a certification. Since new and recent pieces are in the nature of art works, what this would amount to would be a situation where a maker's work was given an appraisal that resulted in it being declared good, bad or indifferent --- or maybe excellent. Can you imagine the implications that would apply if this were to be the case? Art works in other fields do not apply this type of appraisal, it is applied by the awarding of prizes in art competitions, but very often, the very best artists and sculptors do not submit their work to judging in a competition because they tend to consider the judges of these competitions to be lacking in the talent necessary to pass judgement on their work. When all is said and done, it is the buyer who decides what an art work is worth and why it is worth a particular sum, but if the buyer does not wish to meet the artist's demands, then the artist need not accept his commission. I'm sorry, but I cannot see any value in any of these appraisal or certification schemes for anybody except the dealers, especially the high level dealers. Conversely, all I can see for the inexperienced collector is a further endorsement of a market that is already riddled with deception.This would be just another opportunity for deception. I think I understand what Neo has put forward, and in all honesty, if it could be implemented it would be a wonderful advance. Regrettably, I have very severe doubts that such a system could ever be implemented upon any footing at all, anywhere. The problem is money:- wherever money is involved, no matter how high minded the certifiers or appraisers may be when the scheme begins, it will inevitably be corrupted sooner or later. Call me cynical if you will, but I have very good reasons for this cynicism. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 23rd May 2011 at 09:27 AM. Reason: clarification

23rd May 2011, 01:06 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	Neo, from your post I believe that I can safely assume that you, yourself , are an Indonesian, living in Indonesia, and are a part of a keris study group in Indonesia, possibly in Jakarta. As such, I believe it is reasonable for me to assume that you have a good understanding of Indonesian moral values and the characteristics of Indonesian society, and most particularly Javanese society. May I most respectfully suggest that you consider the implications of establishment of any Indonesian group or organisation that set out to provide keris certification. Most especially you should consider this from the point of view of a dealer. Similarly, perhaps you may care to consider the benefits to a dealer of an accepted structure that under-pinned the collection of the keris. I believe you will already have the knowledge and experience necessary to answer your own question.

23rd May 2011, 06:40 AM	#5
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	As we all know, that Tangguh is the hardest part for certification because its an assumption and there is no clear and standard way available. (a never ending story). Keris certification is possible for newly made keris. So, if Neo prepared to scale down his project, we can start the discussion. I personally believe that there are current maker around who can make "Good" Keris for us (plus your luck, of course... )

23rd May 2011, 09:46 AM	#7
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Alan, I'm thinking of Certification (Certificate Authenticity by the maker) not Appraisal for the Keris. The Certification may be consist of: 1. Dhapur 2. Pamor 3. Material used (pamor and slorok) 4. Name/date maker's name. 5. Picture of pawakan/ sor soran, etc and others So hopefully for the next 200years our great great grandsons still keep it and nobody will argue about the Keris we are having today..... hopefully. rasjid