Kattara for comments

kahnjar1 · 21st May 2011, 07:52 AM

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12242
The plot thickens.................. Refer to above link where Kattara were also discussed. ARCHER posted pics of a sword with "knobs" on the top of the hilt. This was (I think) eventually identified as Manding, but take a look at the sword held by Sultan Tipu! Looks remarkably similar.
So what do the Members think now..............? Is ARCHER'S sword in fact a Kattara?

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st May 2011, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12242
The plot thickens.................. Refer to above link where Kattara were also discussed. ARCHER posted pics of a sword with "knobs" on the top of the hilt. This was (I think) eventually identified as Manding, but take a look at the sword held by Sultan Tipu! Looks remarkably similar.
So what do the Members think now..............? Is ARCHER'S sword in fact a Kattara?

Salaams, Archers is Mendingo and the other with the Sultan is kattara. Thats not "Tippu Sultan".. that may have been a misleading comment by me ... Tippu tip al swahili was a slave trader (there was a tipu sultan but he was off another generation altogether from India not related)

Tippu Tip or Tib (1837 - June 14, 1905), real name Hamad bin Muḥammad bin Jumah bin Rajab bin Muḥammad bin Sa‘īd al-Murghabī, (Arabic: حمد بن محمد بن جمعة بن رجب بن محمد بن سعيد المرجبي‎), was a Swahili-Zanzibari trader of mixed descent. He was famously known as Tippu Tib after an eye disease which made him blind. A notorious slave trader, plantation owner and governor, who worked for a succession of sultans of Zanzibar, he led many trading expeditions into east-central Africa, involving the slave trade and ivory trade. He constructed profitable trading posts that reached deep into Central Africa.

The photo may be one of the Zanzibari sultans like Barghash or whoever but anyway that is an Omani Kattara...with a hole in the pommel !!

I think what may be important here is that the link with African swords to the Omani Kattara is being dismantled and it may be that the Kattara is a thoroughbred Omani system coupled with the buckler Terss shield and possibly pre-dating previous estimates and dwarfing age estimates by possibly 500 years !! since it is engrained in the historical cultural Omani tradition by way of a sword and shield war dance.

My estimate is 9th century inspired from the Oman Coast, war, trade and slavery and by the fact of the traditional dance.

I think what is also slowly dawning is the suposition that the Omani Short Battle Sword may be well and truly ancient predating previous estimates by several centuries as a staggering 8th Century weapon copied from the Abbasid.

What clouds the issue on the Long Kattara is the abundance of european blades though presumeably the original blade was similar ?? Im not even sure that looking at the blade is all that relevant ~ it is the hilt and the shield which seem to be more an important flag on origin and the cultural aspect of a traditional war dance which takes ages before it becomes imprinted as a national iconic structure.

By the way do you notice the brass escutcheons on the front of the Buckler ?... They are for securing the handle and for disarming with a twist the opponents sword.

I think I should put on record the number of different swords on this long hilt is vast...both straight, double edged, single edged, zig zag blades, slight curved, and very curved and in my collection alone there are lots... so a picture should be seen displaying that conundrum~

That alone underpins how difficult it is to trace back the origin of species of the Omani Kattara and the oldest picture(photo) I have seen is about 1860. If anyone has any older photos or pictures I would appreciate that.

Regards Ibrahiim.

Stasa Katz · 12th July 2012, 03:55 PM

If one is curious about trade and travel routes in the Islamic world in the 14th Century CE, there are many great maps in Dunn's book, The Adventures of Ibn Battuta.

Battuta travelled between Yemen and East Africa, and much later, by camel caravan from Tunisia into the Sahel, hence to Mali and back.

He also went through Anatolia, Mesopotamia, the steppes, Afghanistan, Sindh, and lived in India.

Dunn gives maps for Battuta's various itineraries, describing the modes of transport and times needed.

There is no information given about travel across central Africa between the East and Mali, as Battuta did not take that route.

http://www.google.com/search?q=dunn+...-1&btnG=Search
But one can get an idea of how very many travel routes existed throughout Dal al Islam, for trade and for making the Haj.

Blades and technicians would have circulated far and wide.

One very great discovery was managing boat traffic across the Indian ocean by exploiting the monsoon patterns. India, Muskat/Oman, Yemen/Hadramaut and Mogodishu and surrounding ports would have been well connected.

Even though Dunn offers an overview, his book is very readable and the maps are a big help.

ariel · 13th December 2012, 12:14 PM

Omitted: see new thread

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th January 2013, 07:16 PM

Salaams Note to Library; Odd stamp .. Stag.

Small Curved Omani KATTARA ... The blade apparently a European style ..heavy back edge on an Omani long hilt. Spotted in Buraimi Souk recently.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st January 2013, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Note to Library; Odd stamp .. Stag.

Small Curved Omani KATTARA ... The blade apparently a European style ..heavy back edge on an Omani long hilt. Spotted in Buraimi Souk recently.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams~ This is another variant of the stamps available with Ras Al Khaimah sword makers. Readers may recall the Lion with Sword and the Taj Crown etc ... well heres another... The Stag Stamp; "Ras Al Khaimah". The same workshop region is also expert at making scabbards and long hilts. These appear to be by Shehu craftsmen and a similar stamp has been seen on their knife blades also called "Shehi"

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd February 2013, 05:30 PM

Salaams ; Note to forum. The question as to where the Metalic Long Hilted Red Sea Variant see fits is interesting in that it could be the source of the Omani Long Hilt on both Curved Kattara and The Straight Omani Dancing Sayf.

It is now suggested that the sword is related to an Abassiid form at the Istanbul Military and Yemeni Military museums thus see the entire thread at;

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16205

See my comparison with a sister weapon at # on this thread which needs to be added the very similar attributes on both swords in hilt design
1. Pointed pommel.
2. Pommel not part of the tang but separate though part of the hilt top configuration.
3. Rounded hilt probably octagonal following period mosque styles.
4. Cuffs in both styles.
5. Rivvet supported design in essentially two parts.
6. Quillons in one form and folded quillons supporting the cuff in the other and the slightly different design probably governed by the different length of blades.

In all respects the Red Sea Variant appears as a stretched Old Omani Battle Sword Hilt. In a separate assessment the Red Sea Variant could be the key link as the mother of the Omani Long Hilt on both Straight Sayf and Curved Kattara forms.

The question as to a link to the sword in the Wallace is open to speculation and obviously in itself a huge undertaking.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 4th February 2013, 04:48 PM

Salaams all Note to Library.

See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...485#post152485 # 27 for an unfolding scenario closely linked to this thread.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 21st May 2011, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12242
The plot thickens.................. Refer to above link where Kattara were also discussed. ARCHER posted pics of a sword with "knobs" on the top of the hilt. This was (I think) eventually identified as Manding, but take a look at the sword held by Sultan Tipu! Looks remarkably similar.
So what do the Members think now..............? Is ARCHER'S sword in fact a Kattara?

Salaams, Archers is Mendingo and the other with the Sultan is kattara. Thats not "Tippu Sultan".. that may have been a misleading comment by me ... Tippu tip al swahili was a slave trader (there was a tipu sultan but he was off another generation altogether from India not related)

Tippu Tip or Tib (1837 - June 14, 1905), real name Hamad bin Muḥammad bin Jumah bin Rajab bin Muḥammad bin Sa‘īd al-Murghabī, (Arabic: حمد بن محمد بن جمعة بن رجب بن محمد بن سعيد المرجبي‎), was a Swahili-Zanzibari trader of mixed descent. He was famously known as Tippu Tib after an eye disease which made him blind. A notorious slave trader, plantation owner and governor, who worked for a succession of sultans of Zanzibar, he led many trading expeditions into east-central Africa, involving the slave trade and ivory trade. He constructed profitable trading posts that reached deep into Central Africa.

The photo may be one of the Zanzibari sultans like Barghash or whoever but anyway that is an Omani Kattara...with a hole in the pommel !!

I think what may be important here is that the link with African swords to the Omani Kattara is being dismantled and it may be that the Kattara is a thoroughbred Omani system coupled with the buckler Terss shield and possibly pre-dating previous estimates and dwarfing age estimates by possibly 500 years !! since it is engrained in the historical cultural Omani tradition by way of a sword and shield war dance.

My estimate is 9th century inspired from the Oman Coast, war, trade and slavery and by the fact of the traditional dance.

I think what is also slowly dawning is the suposition that the Omani Short Battle Sword may be well and truly ancient predating previous estimates by several centuries as a staggering 8th Century weapon copied from the Abbasid.

What clouds the issue on the Long Kattara is the abundance of european blades though presumeably the original blade was similar ?? Im not even sure that looking at the blade is all that relevant ~ it is the hilt and the shield which seem to be more an important flag on origin and the cultural aspect of a traditional war dance which takes ages before it becomes imprinted as a national iconic structure.

By the way do you notice the brass escutcheons on the front of the Buckler ?... They are for securing the handle and for disarming with a twist the opponents sword.

I think I should put on record the number of different swords on this long hilt is vast...both straight, double edged, single edged, zig zag blades, slight curved, and very curved and in my collection alone there are lots... so a picture should be seen displaying that conundrum~

That alone underpins how difficult it is to trace back the origin of species of the Omani Kattara and the oldest picture(photo) I have seen is about 1860. If anyone has any older photos or pictures I would appreciate that.

Regards Ibrahiim.

Jim McDougall · 21st May 2011, 05:06 PM

Outstanding Stu!! Thats exactly the example of Yemeni sword I was thinking of!
Nicely explained summation of the discussion to date and reiteration of what we are closer to agreeing on the development of these swords Ibrahiim. Thank you for providing all the detail on Tipu Tib as well, as the slave trade seems key to much of the diffusion involved here, and it is well established that Zanzibar was one of the busy if not key East African centers.

With this I wanted to reassert my thoughts on the idea that the Mandingo sabre hilt form may well be connected to these Omani kattara (long) through these slave trade routes. I agree that the sword shown by Archer in the linked thread is Mandingo, with similar hilt shape to kattara, but note the ring around the leather wrapped grip midpoint, and the spherical knob atip the grip is of course different than the squared Omani pommel (with aperture). I would reemphasize that I believe the influence in Mandingo swords reflected probably the Omani type swords.

The Trans Saharan trade routes crossed through Timbuktu, in Mali, and it is worthy of note that the Mandingo settlements in Burkina Faso and Mali were built around these long distance trade routes. In these regions these were contolled by the Mandingo people known as Dyula (Manding=merchant). It would seem reasonable that Omani swords travelling with these long distance caravans, including probably some slaves destined for Morocco (and likely with Omani overseers and merchants factors) as one key terminus, may have deeply influenced the Dyula. As noted, these kattara were esteemed symbols of status for the Omani merchants, and it would seem that thier Saharan counterparts would seek to emulate these probably keenly noted swords in thier own interpretation.

The example shown by Archer seems to reflect deeply the Omani form hilt, and has the typical Saharan broadsword blade seen on takouba, and in the larger examples on kaskara, instead of the typical European sabre blades.
It is also interesting that these triple fullered blades are seen on the cylindrically hilted swords of Sierra Leone as well, again with local hilting being favored, in this case with rondel type hilt.

All best regards,
Jim

21st May 2011, 07:52 AM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,786	Sultan Tipu's sword http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12242 The plot thickens.................. Refer to above link where Kattara were also discussed. ARCHER posted pics of a sword with "knobs" on the top of the hilt. This was (I think) eventually identified as Manding, but take a look at the sword held by Sultan Tipu! Looks remarkably similar. So what do the Members think now..............? Is ARCHER'S sword in fact a Kattara?

12th July 2012, 03:55 PM	#3
Stasa Katz Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 18	14th Century CE trade travel routes Dar El Islam If one is curious about trade and travel routes in the Islamic world in the 14th Century CE, there are many great maps in Dunn's book, The Adventures of Ibn Battuta. Battuta travelled between Yemen and East Africa, and much later, by camel caravan from Tunisia into the Sahel, hence to Mali and back. He also went through Anatolia, Mesopotamia, the steppes, Afghanistan, Sindh, and lived in India. Dunn gives maps for Battuta's various itineraries, describing the modes of transport and times needed. There is no information given about travel across central Africa between the East and Mali, as Battuta did not take that route. http://www.google.com/search?q=dunn+...-1&btnG=Search But one can get an idea of how very many travel routes existed throughout Dal al Islam, for trade and for making the Haj. Blades and technicians would have circulated far and wide. One very great discovery was managing boat traffic across the Indian ocean by exploiting the monsoon patterns. India, Muskat/Oman, Yemen/Hadramaut and Mogodishu and surrounding ports would have been well connected. Even though Dunn offers an overview, his book is very readable and the maps are a big help.

13th December 2012, 12:14 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Omitted: see new thread Last edited by ariel; 13th December 2012 at 05:50 PM.

28th January 2013, 07:16 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Note to Library; Odd stamp .. Stag. Small Curved Omani KATTARA ... The blade apparently a European style ..heavy back edge on an Omani long hilt. Spotted in Buraimi Souk recently. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

2nd February 2013, 05:30 PM	#7
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams ; Note to forum. The question as to where the Metalic Long Hilted Red Sea Variant see fits is interesting in that it could be the source of the Omani Long Hilt on both Curved Kattara and The Straight Omani Dancing Sayf. It is now suggested that the sword is related to an Abassiid form at the Istanbul Military and Yemeni Military museums thus see the entire thread at; http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16205 See my comparison with a sister weapon at # on this thread which needs to be added the very similar attributes on both swords in hilt design 1. Pointed pommel. 2. Pommel not part of the tang but separate though part of the hilt top configuration. 3. Rounded hilt probably octagonal following period mosque styles. 4. Cuffs in both styles. 5. Rivvet supported design in essentially two parts. 6. Quillons in one form and folded quillons supporting the cuff in the other and the slightly different design probably governed by the different length of blades. In all respects the Red Sea Variant appears as a stretched Old Omani Battle Sword Hilt. In a separate assessment the Red Sea Variant could be the key link as the mother of the Omani Long Hilt on both Straight Sayf and Curved Kattara forms. The question as to a link to the sword in the Wallace is open to speculation and obviously in itself a huge undertaking. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 2nd February 2013 at 06:06 PM.

4th February 2013, 04:48 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all Note to Library. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...485#post152485 # 27 for an unfolding scenario closely linked to this thread. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 4th February 2013 at 05:10 PM.

21st May 2011, 05:06 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Outstanding Stu!! Thats exactly the example of Yemeni sword I was thinking of! Nicely explained summation of the discussion to date and reiteration of what we are closer to agreeing on the development of these swords Ibrahiim. Thank you for providing all the detail on Tipu Tib as well, as the slave trade seems key to much of the diffusion involved here, and it is well established that Zanzibar was one of the busy if not key East African centers. With this I wanted to reassert my thoughts on the idea that the Mandingo sabre hilt form may well be connected to these Omani kattara (long) through these slave trade routes. I agree that the sword shown by Archer in the linked thread is Mandingo, with similar hilt shape to kattara, but note the ring around the leather wrapped grip midpoint, and the spherical knob atip the grip is of course different than the squared Omani pommel (with aperture). I would reemphasize that I believe the influence in Mandingo swords reflected probably the Omani type swords. The Trans Saharan trade routes crossed through Timbuktu, in Mali, and it is worthy of note that the Mandingo settlements in Burkina Faso and Mali were built around these long distance trade routes. In these regions these were contolled by the Mandingo people known as Dyula (Manding=merchant). It would seem reasonable that Omani swords travelling with these long distance caravans, including probably some slaves destined for Morocco (and likely with Omani overseers and merchants factors) as one key terminus, may have deeply influenced the Dyula. As noted, these kattara were esteemed symbols of status for the Omani merchants, and it would seem that thier Saharan counterparts would seek to emulate these probably keenly noted swords in thier own interpretation. The example shown by Archer seems to reflect deeply the Omani form hilt, and has the typical Saharan broadsword blade seen on takouba, and in the larger examples on kaskara, instead of the typical European sabre blades. It is also interesting that these triple fullered blades are seen on the cylindrically hilted swords of Sierra Leone as well, again with local hilting being favored, in this case with rondel type hilt. All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 21st May 2011 at 05:17 PM.