Dapur question ?

Sajen · 17th May 2011, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Original wrongko can be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13482. In this ensemble the wrong part is the hilt.

Hello Gustav,

thank you, you have a very good memory!

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2011, 04:25 AM

Rasdan, here is a copy of a page from a text book that was prepared about 100 years ago for use by Surakarta Karaton mpus.

I think it shows clearly what I mean by "crossed V".

The result of this type of construction is that the sorsoran area of a blade is solid pamor.

rasdan · 18th May 2011, 04:28 AM

I see.. thanks Alan..

What does the top and bottom left diagram actually shows?

Do we have to made the curls (top diagram) individually and stack and weld them together?

Why does the bottom left diagram sliced in the middle? By the look of the crossed V diagram, it is sliced along the thin side.

Sorry, I have no forging experience whatsoever..

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2011, 05:19 AM

You stack the curls and weld them, then you split the curls with a blunt hot chisel, then you weld the billet back together again along the split. The splitting with a blunt chisel drags down the grain of the metal to give the pattern its form.

When the split has been welded back together you split it through its width and then weld in the core as a V, which gives it a point and edges, but provides pamor depth through the centre.

Nearly everybody with a keris interest has no knowledge of forge work Rasdan, let alone pattern welding. But we all do need a little of this knowledge, because without it we cannot really read pamor. If all we see is the result, its a bit like seeing a car run down the road at 100 miles an hour, but having no understanding of how it does that.

Gustav · 18th May 2011, 07:58 AM

Alan,

are the pamor bars in this case made tapered from beginning on (becouse curls at the tip should be smaller)?

Are the V shaped pamor bars later already more or less keris shaped?

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2011, 09:37 AM

Yes Gustav, the individual bars that are curled at each end are forged down to taper to the end, before being curled.

No, the billet is not more less keris shaped when it is welded together.

I will anticipate your next question:-

how is the billet forged to shape without the pamor motif being distorted?

sorry I am not permitted to answer this question

Gustav · 18th May 2011, 09:55 AM

Thank you, Alan.

As you wrote, more complex pamor occured around 1900. Is this kind of forging bound to elaborate pamor and occured about the same time, or is it older? I remember to have seen pictures of a badly worn older blade, where the edges seemed to be inserted (?). It seemed like a kind of forging similar to some Japanese technics to me at this time.

18th May 2011, 04:25 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Rasdan, here is a copy of a page from a text book that was prepared about 100 years ago for use by Surakarta Karaton mpus. I think it shows clearly what I mean by "crossed V". The result of this type of construction is that the sorsoran area of a blade is solid pamor. Attached Images

18th May 2011, 04:28 AM	#3
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	I see.. thanks Alan.. What does the top and bottom left diagram actually shows? Do we have to made the curls (top diagram) individually and stack and weld them together? Why does the bottom left diagram sliced in the middle? By the look of the crossed V diagram, it is sliced along the thin side. Sorry, I have no forging experience whatsoever..

18th May 2011, 05:19 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	You stack the curls and weld them, then you split the curls with a blunt hot chisel, then you weld the billet back together again along the split. The splitting with a blunt chisel drags down the grain of the metal to give the pattern its form. When the split has been welded back together you split it through its width and then weld in the core as a V, which gives it a point and edges, but provides pamor depth through the centre. Nearly everybody with a keris interest has no knowledge of forge work Rasdan, let alone pattern welding. But we all do need a little of this knowledge, because without it we cannot really read pamor. If all we see is the result, its a bit like seeing a car run down the road at 100 miles an hour, but having no understanding of how it does that.

18th May 2011, 07:58 AM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Alan, are the pamor bars in this case made tapered from beginning on (becouse curls at the tip should be smaller)? Are the V shaped pamor bars later already more or less keris shaped?

18th May 2011, 09:37 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Yes Gustav, the individual bars that are curled at each end are forged down to taper to the end, before being curled. No, the billet is not more less keris shaped when it is welded together. I will anticipate your next question:- how is the billet forged to shape without the pamor motif being distorted? sorry I am not permitted to answer this question

18th May 2011, 09:55 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Thank you, Alan. As you wrote, more complex pamor occured around 1900. Is this kind of forging bound to elaborate pamor and occured about the same time, or is it older? I remember to have seen pictures of a badly worn older blade, where the edges seemed to be inserted (?). It seemed like a kind of forging similar to some Japanese technics to me at this time.