Dapur question ?

Gustav · 17th May 2011, 08:33 PM

Actually if a keris has some condong leleh, it looks much better when sogokan and janur are bent, otherwise it would have this terribly stiff look.

danny1976 · 17th May 2011, 09:37 PM

everybody thanks for joining the discussion.

for myself i also still have the opinion that the keris is original and not a keris that they upgraded by cutting the sogokans.
I brought it last sunday to a meeting and showed it to some collectors that are well known here in Holland and some other country,s . The also have the opinion that the blade is original.

also maybe a step closer to the dapur , could it be Balu Balan ?
Someone told me that he thinks this is the dapur .

I.M.O the pamor is ''just'' Beras Wutha and not a kind of Bendo sagodo.

@ Sajen,

yes there is a waranka , but not original i found this blade in a east Jawa waranka but the fitting was terrible so i did look for a other waranka and it is now in a Waranka from Solo .

Gustav · 17th May 2011, 09:42 PM

Original wrongko can be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13482. In this ensemble the wrong part is the hilt.

Sajen · 17th May 2011, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Original wrongko can be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13482. In this ensemble the wrong part is the hilt.

Hello Gustav,

thank you, you have a very good memory!

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2011, 04:25 AM

Rasdan, here is a copy of a page from a text book that was prepared about 100 years ago for use by Surakarta Karaton mpus.

I think it shows clearly what I mean by "crossed V".

The result of this type of construction is that the sorsoran area of a blade is solid pamor.

rasdan · 18th May 2011, 04:28 AM

I see.. thanks Alan..

What does the top and bottom left diagram actually shows?

Do we have to made the curls (top diagram) individually and stack and weld them together?

Why does the bottom left diagram sliced in the middle? By the look of the crossed V diagram, it is sliced along the thin side.

Sorry, I have no forging experience whatsoever..

A. G. Maisey · 18th May 2011, 05:19 AM

You stack the curls and weld them, then you split the curls with a blunt hot chisel, then you weld the billet back together again along the split. The splitting with a blunt chisel drags down the grain of the metal to give the pattern its form.

When the split has been welded back together you split it through its width and then weld in the core as a V, which gives it a point and edges, but provides pamor depth through the centre.

Nearly everybody with a keris interest has no knowledge of forge work Rasdan, let alone pattern welding. But we all do need a little of this knowledge, because without it we cannot really read pamor. If all we see is the result, its a bit like seeing a car run down the road at 100 miles an hour, but having no understanding of how it does that.

18th May 2011, 04:25 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Rasdan, here is a copy of a page from a text book that was prepared about 100 years ago for use by Surakarta Karaton mpus. I think it shows clearly what I mean by "crossed V". The result of this type of construction is that the sorsoran area of a blade is solid pamor. Attached Images

17th May 2011, 08:33 PM	#1
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Actually if a keris has some condong leleh, it looks much better when sogokan and janur are bent, otherwise it would have this terribly stiff look.

17th May 2011, 09:37 PM	#2
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	everybody thanks for joining the discussion. for myself i also still have the opinion that the keris is original and not a keris that they upgraded by cutting the sogokans. I brought it last sunday to a meeting and showed it to some collectors that are well known here in Holland and some other country,s . The also have the opinion that the blade is original. also maybe a step closer to the dapur , could it be Balu Balan ? Someone told me that he thinks this is the dapur . I.M.O the pamor is ''just'' Beras Wutha and not a kind of Bendo sagodo. @ Sajen, yes there is a waranka , but not original i found this blade in a east Jawa waranka but the fitting was terrible so i did look for a other waranka and it is now in a Waranka from Solo .

17th May 2011, 09:42 PM	#3
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Original wrongko can be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13482. In this ensemble the wrong part is the hilt.

18th May 2011, 04:28 AM	#6
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	I see.. thanks Alan.. What does the top and bottom left diagram actually shows? Do we have to made the curls (top diagram) individually and stack and weld them together? Why does the bottom left diagram sliced in the middle? By the look of the crossed V diagram, it is sliced along the thin side. Sorry, I have no forging experience whatsoever..

18th May 2011, 05:19 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	You stack the curls and weld them, then you split the curls with a blunt hot chisel, then you weld the billet back together again along the split. The splitting with a blunt chisel drags down the grain of the metal to give the pattern its form. When the split has been welded back together you split it through its width and then weld in the core as a V, which gives it a point and edges, but provides pamor depth through the centre. Nearly everybody with a keris interest has no knowledge of forge work Rasdan, let alone pattern welding. But we all do need a little of this knowledge, because without it we cannot really read pamor. If all we see is the result, its a bit like seeing a car run down the road at 100 miles an hour, but having no understanding of how it does that.