Small axes for ID

Atlantia · 17th May 2011, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Coming in late on this one with my .2 cents. On many of these early axes, the "hammer" was in fact a counter-weight to the cutting edge. It was the same on colonial American trade axes, native American tomahawks, etc. I don't think these were strictly utility, but like the above mentioned axes, were probably both a tool and a weapon. Their thickened, bearded blades very closely resemble many boarding axes of the period sans spike.(again, a tool and in time of need, a lethal weapon) The patterning, although it could be E. Euro, strikes me as E Indian, so-called Hindi-dot pattern. I've seen somethiong like these on the old defunct tomahawks page. Perhaps I can find the link...

More the merrier. Thanks for coming into the discussion

I've taken some proper measurements:
The larger axe head is 13.5cm/10cm, Weighing (approx) 380g minus the shaft.
The smaller axe head is 10.5cm/9.25cm weighing about the same: 380g.

Just as a page 2 reminder, here they are again:

katana · 17th May 2011, 04:23 PM

Looking at the hammer head....2 things spring to mind. One.... efficient hammer 'faces' are very slightly domed, these are flat, secondly, there seems to be no marks/damage indicating use as a hammer.

I too believe that these are purely for balance. Below I have marked the axe heads with the centre of the shaft hole, the edge of the hammer and the back edge of the blade. The distance from the centre line to the hammer edge and the centre line to the back edge are almost identical (in ratio)for each axe. The measurements are approx. on the picture and are only to scale (so not actual dimensions), but I hope it shows better what I mean.The maker seems to have been very exacting in ensuring 'balance'. On a long shaft this would be important as imbalance would be more exagerated as the shaft is 'lengthened'.

When I first saw these axes, I immediately thought Indian. I do not think these are utilitarian. The angle of the blade (off-set, diagonal from the shaft) would not be ideal for cutting wood etc. (better to have the blade in-line with the haft) Some carpenter axes are off-set (left or right, from the centre line) but are still in-line to the shaft.

I believe the angle of the axe blade is to ensure a good cut when it is mount on a long shaft and used from horseback.....I believe that these are IMHO saddle axes.

Kind Regards David

Tim Simmons · 17th May 2011, 04:57 PM

These pictures might help. I know a vase of flowers is seen on many Persian and Turkic carpets but I still do not see the work on these axes as Turkish or further east.

katana · 17th May 2011, 05:38 PM

It seems these axes may be explained by 'cultural movement'.

The Roma (Romani) were Hindu's that originated from North India and due to historic reasons migrated and diffused into Eastern Europe and beyond. A lot of Roma resided in Hungary ...and therefore had cultural roots in India. Perhaps the axe design is indeed Indian ...but with 'local' decoration .....

Regards David

Atlantia · 18th May 2011, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

These pictures might help. I know a vase of flowers is seen on many Persian and Turkic carpets but I still do not see the work on these axes as Turkish or further east.

Hi Tim,

Again, excellent detective work. The similarites are undeniable.
We must be close to finding another example now!

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 18th May 2011, 12:18 PM

Remember, Any 'lurker' who can help, please email me at:
gimmieitbaby@aol.com

Atlantia · 19th May 2011, 08:18 AM

'Romulus' a Romanian member on another forum has been discussing the possible connection with E.Europe.
He has concluded:
"About the Huzzulen ("Hutsuls" in english, "Huţuli" in romanian)... You could find some more informations here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutsuls
They are not the only mountaineers in the Romanian Carpathians, but they are a distinctive group with a blurred origin. They speak a dialect of the ukrainean language mixed with romanian influences. They live in two main areas in Romania : Bukowina (Bucovina in romanian) and in Upper Moldavia (mountain part of Moldavia, opposed to Lower Moldavia which is mainly a plain and a steppe. A large part of Lower Moldavia is now The Republic of Moldavia, former Soviet Republic of Moldavia) and in Ukraine too (Ukraine include a large part of Bukowina). Very interesting is the fact that one of the areas inhabited by Hutsuls consists of 7 villages (now 8, one of those villages is new) in a remote mountain valley, exactly like in the text you posted. They are renown for their specific breed of mountain horses.
About the picture you posted, you can see in the Hutsuls page on Wikipedia a picture with a horseman that has striking similarities with one of those in your picture but the Hutsuls don't wear their hair in braided tails like the one leading the smugglers group in your picture. This custom is specific to hungarians and transylvanian romanians in the mountain regions in south-western and western Transylvania.
About the fact that that smuggler served in Austrian army, there were three border regiments formed from romanians and one regiment formed with hutsuls in the austrian army. They were asigned especially to guard the mountain borders and they were expert skirmishers trained in guerrilla-like tactics, best training for a smuggler ...
About the axes, I don't really think that they are from Transylvania (they look more like indo-persian/turkish axes), I just pointed out that the decoration pattern is similar, but I don't exclude the posibility that they could be, because there was a huge turkish influence on weapons and armor used by trasnylvanians, moldavians and wallachians from late XV century to early XIX century."

kahnjar1 · 19th May 2011, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Remember, Any 'lurker' who can help, please email me at:
gimmieitbaby@aol.com

I have already "lurked" but due to possible copyright have not "published" here. Perhaps a reference to the chapter on Axes in Elgoods Arms and Armour of Arabia might produce some comment......particularly the last section of that chapter, and the photo which appears there. I see that no one else has suggested an Arabian origin.
Stu

Emanuel · 19th May 2011, 05:31 PM

Nice investigative piece this thread

The bit about the Transylvanian smugglers is interesting.

Wish I could bring in some more points but I've got nothing except to restate the Ottoman influence.

A thought about these two axes... they look like they might have been produced by the same smith, perhaps in a series, hence their look like a "type". Romanian tools and weapons were far more fluid though. The Polish ciupaga is a much more rigid and formalized, but there aren't any real Romanian "types" for any kind of sword or tool that I know of, as the area was heavily influenced by the Ottomans, Slavs, Hungarians and Saxons.

The original handles might have helped as wood carving can be very distinct.

Keep up the search :Thumbs up:
Emanuel

Atlantia · 20th May 2011, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I have already "lurked" but due to possible copyright have not "published" here. Perhaps a reference to the chapter on Axes in Elgoods Arms and Armour of Arabia might produce some comment......particularly the last section of that chapter, and the photo which appears there. I see that no one else has suggested an Arabian origin.
Stu

Hi Stu,
thats it, you've got to expand and elaborate on your theory now

Best
Gene

Atlantia · 18th May 2011, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Looking at the hammer head....2 things spring to mind. One.... efficient hammer 'faces' are very slightly domed, these are flat, secondly, there seems to be no marks/damage indicating use as a hammer.

I too believe that these are purely for balance. Below I have marked the axe heads with the centre of the shaft hole, the edge of the hammer and the back edge of the blade. The distance from the centre line to the hammer edge and the centre line to the back edge are almost identical (in ratio)for each axe. The measurements are approx. on the picture and are only to scale (so not actual dimensions), but I hope it shows better what I mean.The maker seems to have been very exacting in ensuring 'balance'. On a long shaft this would be important as imbalance would be more exagerated as the shaft is 'lengthened'.

When I first saw these axes, I immediately thought Indian. I do not think these are utilitarian. The angle of the blade (off-set, diagonal from the shaft) would not be ideal for cutting wood etc. (better to have the blade in-line with the haft) Some carpenter axes are off-set (left or right, from the centre line) but are still in-line to the shaft.

I believe the angle of the axe blade is to ensure a good cut when it is mount on a long shaft and used from horseback.....I believe that these are IMHO saddle axes.

Kind Regards David

Excellent thinking!
I've been wracking my brain, as I'm sure I had an axe with an ofset angled cutting edge before. But I've had som many over the last 25+ years I can't remember which one it was!
Both of these two has that feature, although it's only slight on the other one.
Great detective work BTW

Best
Gene

17th May 2011, 04:23 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Looking at the hammer head....2 things spring to mind. One.... efficient hammer 'faces' are very slightly domed, these are flat, secondly, there seems to be no marks/damage indicating use as a hammer. I too believe that these are purely for balance. Below I have marked the axe heads with the centre of the shaft hole, the edge of the hammer and the back edge of the blade. The distance from the centre line to the hammer edge and the centre line to the back edge are almost identical (in ratio)for each axe. The measurements are approx. on the picture and are only to scale (so not actual dimensions), but I hope it shows better what I mean.The maker seems to have been very exacting in ensuring 'balance'. On a long shaft this would be important as imbalance would be more exagerated as the shaft is 'lengthened'. When I first saw these axes, I immediately thought Indian. I do not think these are utilitarian. The angle of the blade (off-set, diagonal from the shaft) would not be ideal for cutting wood etc. (better to have the blade in-line with the haft) Some carpenter axes are off-set (left or right, from the centre line) but are still in-line to the shaft. I believe the angle of the axe blade is to ensure a good cut when it is mount on a long shaft and used from horseback.....I believe that these are IMHO saddle axes. Kind Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 17th May 2011 at 04:52 PM.

17th May 2011, 04:57 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	These pictures might help. I know a vase of flowers is seen on many Persian and Turkic carpets but I still do not see the work on these axes as Turkish or further east. Attached Images

17th May 2011, 05:38 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	It seems these axes may be explained by 'cultural movement'. The Roma (Romani) were Hindu's that originated from North India and due to historic reasons migrated and diffused into Eastern Europe and beyond. A lot of Roma resided in Hungary ...and therefore had cultural roots in India. Perhaps the axe design is indeed Indian ...but with 'local' decoration ..... Regards David Last edited by katana; 17th May 2011 at 05:55 PM.

18th May 2011, 12:18 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Remember, Any 'lurker' who can help, please email me at: gimmieitbaby@aol.com

19th May 2011, 08:18 AM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	'Romulus' a Romanian member on another forum has been discussing the possible connection with E.Europe. He has concluded: "About the Huzzulen ("Hutsuls" in english, "Huţuli" in romanian)... You could find some more informations here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutsuls They are not the only mountaineers in the Romanian Carpathians, but they are a distinctive group with a blurred origin. They speak a dialect of the ukrainean language mixed with romanian influences. They live in two main areas in Romania : Bukowina (Bucovina in romanian) and in Upper Moldavia (mountain part of Moldavia, opposed to Lower Moldavia which is mainly a plain and a steppe. A large part of Lower Moldavia is now The Republic of Moldavia, former Soviet Republic of Moldavia) and in Ukraine too (Ukraine include a large part of Bukowina). Very interesting is the fact that one of the areas inhabited by Hutsuls consists of 7 villages (now 8, one of those villages is new) in a remote mountain valley, exactly like in the text you posted. They are renown for their specific breed of mountain horses. About the picture you posted, you can see in the Hutsuls page on Wikipedia a picture with a horseman that has striking similarities with one of those in your picture but the Hutsuls don't wear their hair in braided tails like the one leading the smugglers group in your picture. This custom is specific to hungarians and transylvanian romanians in the mountain regions in south-western and western Transylvania. About the fact that that smuggler served in Austrian army, there were three border regiments formed from romanians and one regiment formed with hutsuls in the austrian army. They were asigned especially to guard the mountain borders and they were expert skirmishers trained in guerrilla-like tactics, best training for a smuggler ... About the axes, I don't really think that they are from Transylvania (they look more like indo-persian/turkish axes), I just pointed out that the decoration pattern is similar, but I don't exclude the posibility that they could be, because there was a huge turkish influence on weapons and armor used by trasnylvanians, moldavians and wallachians from late XV century to early XIX century."

19th May 2011, 05:31 PM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Nice investigative piece this thread The bit about the Transylvanian smugglers is interesting. Wish I could bring in some more points but I've got nothing except to restate the Ottoman influence. A thought about these two axes... they look like they might have been produced by the same smith, perhaps in a series, hence their look like a "type". Romanian tools and weapons were far more fluid though. The Polish ciupaga is a much more rigid and formalized, but there aren't any real Romanian "types" for any kind of sword or tool that I know of, as the area was heavily influenced by the Ottomans, Slavs, Hungarians and Saxons. The original handles might have helped as wood carving can be very distinct. Keep up the search :Thumbs up: Emanuel