Small axes for ID

[Tim Simmons]

Yes Hungarian. Whats wrong with that .

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Yes Hungarian. Whats wrong with that .

I can see the possibility of Eastern European, but I'm struggling to see them as mere 'utility' axes.
My reasoning:
The shape of the cutting edge and narrowness of the blade doesn't make for good kindling splitting.
The smaller of the two doesn't even have a cutting edge thats parallel to the shaft (see pic below)
Despite the simplicity of the punched decoration, these are quite an elaborate piece of metalworking, far more than I would expect from a ulitity piece.

I don't know, perhaps I just hope that you are wrong on that and they are 'battle axes'.

Best
Gene

[Tim Simmons]

I can see no reason why you could not seriously hurt a person with one.

[M ELEY]

Coming in late on this one with my .2 cents. On many of these early axes, the "hammer" was in fact a counter-weight to the cutting edge. It was the same on colonial American trade axes, native American tomahawks, etc. I don't think these were strictly utility, but like the above mentioned axes, were probably both a tool and a weapon. Their thickened, bearded blades very closely resemble many boarding axes of the period sans spike.(again, a tool and in time of need, a lethal weapon) The patterning, although it could be E. Euro, strikes me as E Indian, so-called Hindi-dot pattern. I've seen somethiong like these on the old defunct tomahawks page. Perhaps I can find the link...

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Coming in late on this one with my .2 cents. On many of these early axes, the "hammer" was in fact a counter-weight to the cutting edge. It was the same on colonial American trade axes, native American tomahawks, etc. I don't think these were strictly utility, but like the above mentioned axes, were probably both a tool and a weapon. Their thickened, bearded blades very closely resemble many boarding axes of the period sans spike.(again, a tool and in time of need, a lethal weapon) The patterning, although it could be E. Euro, strikes me as E Indian, so-called Hindi-dot pattern. I've seen somethiong like these on the old defunct tomahawks page. Perhaps I can find the link...

More the merrier. Thanks for coming into the discussion

I've taken some proper measurements:
The larger axe head is 13.5cm/10cm, Weighing (approx) 380g minus the shaft.
The smaller axe head is 10.5cm/9.25cm weighing about the same: 380g.


Just as a page 2 reminder, here they are again:

[katana]

Looking at the hammer head....2 things spring to mind. One.... efficient hammer 'faces' are very slightly domed, these are flat, secondly, there seems to be no marks/damage indicating use as a hammer.

I too believe that these are purely for balance. Below I have marked the axe heads with the centre of the shaft hole, the edge of the hammer and the back edge of the blade. The distance from the centre line to the hammer edge and the centre line to the back edge are almost identical (in ratio)for each axe. The measurements are approx. on the picture and are only to scale (so not actual dimensions), but I hope it shows better what I mean.The maker seems to have been very exacting in ensuring 'balance'. On a long shaft this would be important as imbalance would be more exagerated as the shaft is 'lengthened'.

When I first saw these axes, I immediately thought Indian. I do not think these are utilitarian. The angle of the blade (off-set, diagonal from the shaft) would not be ideal for cutting wood etc. (better to have the blade in-line with the haft) Some carpenter axes are off-set (left or right, from the centre line) but are still in-line to the shaft.

I believe the angle of the axe blade is to ensure a good cut when it is mount on a long shaft and used from horseback.....I believe that these are IMHO saddle axes.

Kind Regards David

[Tim Simmons]

These pictures might help. I know a vase of flowers is seen on many Persian and Turkic carpets but I still do not see the work on these axes as Turkish or further east.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by katana

Looking at the hammer head....2 things spring to mind. One.... efficient hammer 'faces' are very slightly domed, these are flat, secondly, there seems to be no marks/damage indicating use as a hammer.

I too believe that these are purely for balance. Below I have marked the axe heads with the centre of the shaft hole, the edge of the hammer and the back edge of the blade. The distance from the centre line to the hammer edge and the centre line to the back edge are almost identical (in ratio)for each axe. The measurements are approx. on the picture and are only to scale (so not actual dimensions), but I hope it shows better what I mean.The maker seems to have been very exacting in ensuring 'balance'. On a long shaft this would be important as imbalance would be more exagerated as the shaft is 'lengthened'.

When I first saw these axes, I immediately thought Indian. I do not think these are utilitarian. The angle of the blade (off-set, diagonal from the shaft) would not be ideal for cutting wood etc. (better to have the blade in-line with the haft) Some carpenter axes are off-set (left or right, from the centre line) but are still in-line to the shaft.

I believe the angle of the axe blade is to ensure a good cut when it is mount on a long shaft and used from horseback.....I believe that these are IMHO saddle axes.

Kind Regards David

Excellent thinking!
I've been wracking my brain, as I'm sure I had an axe with an ofset angled cutting edge before. But I've had som many over the last 25+ years I can't remember which one it was!
Both of these two has that feature, although it's only slight on the other one.
Great detective work BTW
Best
Gene

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I can see the possibility of Eastern European, but I'm struggling to see them as mere 'utility' axes.
My reasoning:
The shape of the cutting edge and narrowness of the blade doesn't make for good kindling splitting.
The smaller of the two doesn't even have a cutting edge thats parallel to the shaft (see pic below)
Despite the simplicity of the punched decoration, these are quite an elaborate piece of metalworking, far more than I would expect from a ulitity piece.

I don't know, perhaps I just hope that you are wrong on that and they are 'battle axes'.

Best
Gene

Salaams, I thought I would start with a solid reference on Maces, axes and staff weapons therefor I refer you to Islamic Arms by Anthony North; page 40 - 45.

With reference to herders weapons only today I saw on the BBC an African herder in Sudan sitting astride his donkey with his cattle herd. He was holding an axe. The Mussandam axe carrried by Shihuh is a herder weapon useful as a walking stick or against snakes... and used in the human defence it is lethal in the strike to head or other targets. There is a bigger version which will have been the big brother for serious fighting.
The weapon appears to be originally a Persian early weapon from the Luristan area. The Shihuh are a fascinating tribe with no written language indeed they seem to be one of the lost tribal groupings though said to have Persian roots. Their language is unrelated to Arabic yet they are settled in the Mussandam region at the gateway to the Gulf astride Oman and the UAE. Tribal tectonic plate movement is a hugely complex issue and it is outside my scope to suppose a link with Indian, Hungarian or other European tributaries of tribal drift and axe usage or influence except to state that "as a crucible of civilisation Persian Luristan several thousand years ago may have had a hand in it all" !

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

PS PHOTO ...SHIHUH WITH AXE

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, I thought I would start with a solid reference on Maces, axes and staff weapons therefor I refer you to Islamic Arms by Anthony North; page 40 - 45.

With reference to herders weapons only today I saw on the BBC an African herder in Sudan sitting astride his donkey with his cattle herd. He was holding an axe. The Mussandam axe carrried by Shihuh is a herder weapon useful as a walking stick or against snakes... and used in the human defence it is lethal in the strike to head or other targets. There is a bigger version which will have been the big brother for serious fighting.
The weapon appears to be originally a Persian early weapon from the Luristan area. The Shihuh are a fascinating tribe with no written language indeed they seem to be one of the lost tribal groupings though said to have Persian roots. Their language is unrelated to Arabic yet they are settled in the Mussandam region at the gateway to the Gulf astride Oman and the UAE. Tribal tectonic plate movement is a hugely complex issue and it is outside my scope to suppose a link with Indian, Hungarian or other European tributaries of tribal drift and axe usage or influence except to state that "as a crucible of civilisation Persian Luristan several thousand years ago may have had a hand in it all" !

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

PS PHOTO ...SHIHUH WITH AXE

Namaste Ibrahiim

I actually do have that book... somewhere..... in a box...... I think...... The V&A one right?
Does it have anything VERY close to mine? If it does, I'll go and search.

The axe in the picture with the seated chap holding it is suprisingly small. You say that they come in different sizes?
It would be interesting to ask a Shihuh user of these axes if they recognise mine!
I don't suppose that you know the gentleman in your picture and could put it to him?


I've found a picture of what appears to be an old Mussandam axe. But I can't find any pictures of the crescent headed Hadhramaut axe that Stuart referenced from Elgood (beyond the one in the aforementioned book).

The evolution of the axe is of course a story far older than recorded history.
When attempting to research my two crescent axes, the amount of references to Sagaris and pictures of ancient painted vases depicting Scythian warriors carrying them did make me smile.
But of course we are not looking so far back (even though I've added some pics of these axes below for fun).
In the great scheme of things, crescent shaped axes are widespread, but a minority.
The shape of the axes in your pictures is perhaps more familiar. The 'usual' shape for many recognised mutipurpose axes, like shepherds axes, tomahawks, even many weaponised axe forms, including european, Indian and Persian.
So I think we need to concentrate on the crescent shaped forms that are a 'match' for mine.


Do you have any further information, references or pictures relating to the Arabic Hadhramaut axe that Stu mentioned above?

Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

I'm not sure if this will help, but I've fashioned a shaft for one of the axes to show it in a more fitting style.
I've used old ash, but I don't like the feel of it. Too light!
Can anyone recommend a source for a more fitting wood to use?

[kahnjar1]

Thanks Gene for reminding us of the ORIGINAL question, which was identification of your crescent shaped axes. The items refered to by Ibrahiim are clearly not of that shape, and if I am correct are called JERZ. The axe that I refered to in Elgoods book is nothing like these, and I attach a pic of the page from his book Arms and Armour of Arabia for clarification. Hopefully the text can also be read.

NOTE TO MODERATORS: If in your opinion the attachment breaches copyright, please delete it. I believe that if original reference is quoted then things are OK?

[Atlantia]

Excellent detective work Stu.

As you say, the traditional form of Jerz axes is very different from my axes.
The Hadhramaut axe pictured shows definate similarites. It would be interesting to see if we could find other examples to clarify if they all have the asymetric downward curve.
These are indeed an interesting type. I don't think I've ever come across an axe that has both the full crescent blade and the downward curve.

This has turned into a very interesting and enlightening, if somewhat frustrating search for me! And from the amount of views, I suspect that others are interested too, so come on you lurkers!!

Best
Gene