Stunning early kris

laEspadaAncha · 14th May 2011, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Regarding the hilt, Cato says that sultan pieces were sometimes covered in gold dots - like this one. This one seems to be a transitional piece between Indonesian and Moro periods.

Who owns this one anyway?

Not I, Jose...

Remember this piece? The "one that got away?" I still feel a slight burn when I think about it...

Spunjer · 14th May 2011, 01:35 PM

did you ever found out who got it, chris? certainly what you got was excellent as well. good provenance!

laEspadaAncha · 14th May 2011, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

did you ever found out who got it, chris? certainly what you got was excellent as well. good provenance!

Hi Spunjer,

Never did find out who the lucky recipient was, though I do know what they paid for it... Upon further consideration, I figured I could count out the most likely local (potential) buyers on one hand. Unfortunately, none of them are ever motivated to sell out of their respective collections, so I've never made a serious attempt to independently track down its new home...

Thanks, BTW...

I do feel fortunate to have acquired 3 of the 4 pieces out of this collection, and appreciate the consolation as such. I guess it's just human nature to lament the "one that got away."

Regards,

Chris

Spunjer · 14th May 2011, 09:15 PM

you know, what is so interesting in that set that you acquired, is the fact that it came with a barung. if this set was indeed captured during the battle against datu udasan, what was the barung doing in there? a suluanon merc? or was the barung carried by a maranao? if the latter was the case, is the present static assumption of these weapons still stands? again, if these were indeed captured weapons, i guess the assumption that one of the moros (perhaps datu udasan himself) owned this archaic kris, and that would be amazing in that going to a battle with (perhaps) centuries old weapon that your life depends on.

Gustav · 14th May 2011, 10:34 PM

There could also be a possibility he acquired the pieces he liked from other soldiers, the krisses are showing taste. It seems to me, it is questionable he got the whole lot in one battle. I think many soldiers were more or less latent collectors.

I copied my speculative and suggestive post from the other thread, just to hold the information together for later:

Here some information from "Indonesian ornamental design" by van der Hoop, 1949, which still is a reference work for this region, and at least the kris hilt is coming from the neighborhood: the whole shape of this panel he calls a "mirror panel", and it is a chinese motif according to him, mostly found with other, like rock and cloud border, in Cirebon. Of course Ming ceramic is full of this kind of panels.

Of course this motif seems to be of Cetral-Asian origin; China absorbed much from the cultures of this region, particularly in the period of Yuan dynasty, many people in the administration at this time were muslims. Later many of chinese seamen, which participated in the great expeditions were muslims, most famous beeing Zheng He. Indonesian scholar Slamet Muljana writes: "Zheng He built Chinese Muslim communities first in Palembang, then in San Fa (West Kalimantan), subsequently he founded similar communities along the shores of Java, the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines. They preached Islam according to the Hanafi school of thought and in Chinese language."

It probably would be a long shot (as Gavin says), yet the origin of the motiv IN the panel could most probably be derived from the tree of life, at least regarding kris hilt.

(The other thread in question: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13789)

Battara · 15th May 2011, 12:55 AM

Vegetable motifs are all over the world. But the okir, a type of vegetable motif, is specific. Interesting though how similarities "crop up" (every pun intended

).

Yes Chris, sadly I remember. Wish I had it - was willing to pay good money for it too (and now the depression sets in

).

Gustav · 15th May 2011, 11:44 AM

Jose,

what are the biggest differences here compared to later okir work, could you please describe them? Thank you

!

14th May 2011, 10:34 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	There could also be a possibility he acquired the pieces he liked from other soldiers, the krisses are showing taste. It seems to me, it is questionable he got the whole lot in one battle. I think many soldiers were more or less latent collectors. I copied my speculative and suggestive post from the other thread, just to hold the information together for later: Here some information from "Indonesian ornamental design" by van der Hoop, 1949, which still is a reference work for this region, and at least the kris hilt is coming from the neighborhood: the whole shape of this panel he calls a "mirror panel", and it is a chinese motif according to him, mostly found with other, like rock and cloud border, in Cirebon. Of course Ming ceramic is full of this kind of panels. Of course this motif seems to be of Cetral-Asian origin; China absorbed much from the cultures of this region, particularly in the period of Yuan dynasty, many people in the administration at this time were muslims. Later many of chinese seamen, which participated in the great expeditions were muslims, most famous beeing Zheng He. Indonesian scholar Slamet Muljana writes: "Zheng He built Chinese Muslim communities first in Palembang, then in San Fa (West Kalimantan), subsequently he founded similar communities along the shores of Java, the Malay Peninsula and the Philippines. They preached Islam according to the Hanafi school of thought and in Chinese language." It probably would be a long shot (as Gavin says), yet the origin of the motiv IN the panel could most probably be derived from the tree of life, at least regarding kris hilt. (The other thread in question: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13789) Attached Images Last edited by Gustav; 14th May 2011 at 11:46 PM.

14th May 2011, 01:35 PM	#2
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	did you ever found out who got it, chris? certainly what you got was excellent as well. good provenance!

14th May 2011, 09:15 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	you know, what is so interesting in that set that you acquired, is the fact that it came with a barung. if this set was indeed captured during the battle against datu udasan, what was the barung doing in there? a suluanon merc? or was the barung carried by a maranao? if the latter was the case, is the present static assumption of these weapons still stands? again, if these were indeed captured weapons, i guess the assumption that one of the moros (perhaps datu udasan himself) owned this archaic kris, and that would be amazing in that going to a battle with (perhaps) centuries old weapon that your life depends on.

15th May 2011, 12:55 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Vegetable motifs are all over the world. But the okir, a type of vegetable motif, is specific. Interesting though how similarities "crop up" (every pun intended ). Yes Chris, sadly I remember. Wish I had it - was willing to pay good money for it too (and now the depression sets in ).

15th May 2011, 11:44 AM	#7
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,273	Jose, what are the biggest differences here compared to later okir work, could you please describe them? Thank you !