keris for sharing \2

Greybeard · 13th May 2011, 07:18 PM

Alan, you are absolutely right -- I should be more accurate when posting here. The seller of my keris "Lung Gandu with one lambe gajah" classifies according to "Ensiklopedi Keris". When consulting my records, I see that he wrote "the dapur is similar to Lung Gandu"; he didn't write "the dapur is Lung Gandu" -- this makes quite a difference ...

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2011, 11:28 PM

Thank you Greybeard.

Yes, that description I can accept.

Personally I like a description that actually names the keris features, for example:- 9 wave, sogokan, kembang kacang, jalen, lambe gajah, ada2, gusen.

As soon as we start to stick a dhapur on something we get into deep water, because unless that blade comes from exactly the same foundation as the pakem you're using, its likely to be diluar pakem.

drdavid · 14th May 2011, 12:39 AM

Hi Alan
would you mind clarifying the term diluar pakem, am I correct in interpreting this as 'outside the pakem' or 'not of the pakem'
thanks
drdavid

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2011, 05:16 AM

"di luar" = outside

If we say that a keris is outside the pakem, we mean that the features (ricikan) that it has do not permit it to be aligned with any of the forms (dhapur) listed in that particular guide book (pakem).

However, that does not necessary mean that it is di luar pakem for all guidebooks.

People who have known me for any length of time know that one of my pet peeves is the "name game" :- that seeming compulsion of all collectors --- not only keris collectors, or weapons collectors --- to want to classify and categorise everything, as if that putting of a name on something is all that is necessary to justify the acquisition and retention of something.

Those with encyclopedic knowledge of names and the associated attributes are regarded as absolute authorities in the field.

I personally regard this game of putting names on things as so much nonsense, and a poor substitute for meaningful knowledge. Probably the only time I ever get involved in it is when people want to know what name to hang on a pamor or dhapur.

But don't mind me. I'm swimming against the tide. Everybody else seems to be vitally interested in this sort of stuff, so I'll go my own way, and when I am able, assist others to go their way.

semar · 14th May 2011, 06:06 AM

I have made a new picteur I think that it is easyer to say what the dapur is

regards semar

A. G. Maisey · 14th May 2011, 07:18 AM

In the crop of the gandhik, who can identify the features that we can see?

In the crop of the greneng does everything look as we would expect it to?

Greybeard · 14th May 2011, 01:17 PM

Here's my uninformed opinion: I see 1 jalen, 1 lambe gajah (placed a bit high!). Regarding the greneng, I would expect to see Ron dha, but cannot find it here (might be worn down, of course).

14th May 2011, 06:06 AM	#5
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	close up picteur I have made a new picteur I think that it is easyer to say what the dapur is regards semar Attached Images

14th May 2011, 07:18 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	In the crop of the gandhik, who can identify the features that we can see? In the crop of the greneng does everything look as we would expect it to? Attached Images

13th May 2011, 07:18 PM	#1
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Alan, you are absolutely right -- I should be more accurate when posting here. The seller of my keris "Lung Gandu with one lambe gajah" classifies according to "Ensiklopedi Keris". When consulting my records, I see that he wrote "the dapur is similar to Lung Gandu"; he didn't write "the dapur is Lung Gandu" -- this makes quite a difference ...

13th May 2011, 11:28 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you Greybeard. Yes, that description I can accept. Personally I like a description that actually names the keris features, for example:- 9 wave, sogokan, kembang kacang, jalen, lambe gajah, ada2, gusen. As soon as we start to stick a dhapur on something we get into deep water, because unless that blade comes from exactly the same foundation as the pakem you're using, its likely to be diluar pakem.

14th May 2011, 12:39 AM	#3
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Hi Alan would you mind clarifying the term diluar pakem, am I correct in interpreting this as 'outside the pakem' or 'not of the pakem' thanks drdavid

14th May 2011, 05:16 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	"di luar" = outside If we say that a keris is outside the pakem, we mean that the features (ricikan) that it has do not permit it to be aligned with any of the forms (dhapur) listed in that particular guide book (pakem). However, that does not necessary mean that it is di luar pakem for all guidebooks. People who have known me for any length of time know that one of my pet peeves is the "name game" :- that seeming compulsion of all collectors --- not only keris collectors, or weapons collectors --- to want to classify and categorise everything, as if that putting of a name on something is all that is necessary to justify the acquisition and retention of something. Those with encyclopedic knowledge of names and the associated attributes are regarded as absolute authorities in the field. I personally regard this game of putting names on things as so much nonsense, and a poor substitute for meaningful knowledge. Probably the only time I ever get involved in it is when people want to know what name to hang on a pamor or dhapur. But don't mind me. I'm swimming against the tide. Everybody else seems to be vitally interested in this sort of stuff, so I'll go my own way, and when I am able, assist others to go their way.

14th May 2011, 01:17 PM	#7
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Here's my uninformed opinion: I see 1 jalen, 1 lambe gajah (placed a bit high!). Regarding the greneng, I would expect to see Ron dha, but cannot find it here (might be worn down, of course).