Dapur question ?

Jean · 13th May 2011, 11:12 AM

Hello Danny,
Just my opinion: The pamor is oddly interrupted by the sogokans especially on the reverse side so I wonder whether the sogokans were added later and in this case the original dapur would be Sempaner, or Kanda Basuki if there is a sraweyan (classification from the EK).
Best regards
Jean

danny1976 · 13th May 2011, 07:04 PM

Hello Jean,

Thanks for your replay , but i don,t believe that the ad/cut the sogokans .

On the photo it,s not so clear but when i have the blade in my hand you can see the pamor going true in the sogokans and also in the ganja .
So the me it looks like a good blade and not a reshaped blade , and second this blade is in Holland for almost 80 years and i will believe that the also reshaped blades in that time but not so much as the do now days in Indonesia to make a blade more nice for the market .

But of course i can be wrong

regards,

danny

Jean · 13th May 2011, 08:49 PM

Hello Danny,
Of course there is pamor under the sogokans but the repeating pamor motif looks "broken" at this level.
If the blade is in its original condition, then according to the EK and the book "Dhapur" it is out of pakem. However you can look in the book "Keris - Daya Magic, etc...) from Ki Hudoyo Doyodipuro, which describes 380 types of straight Javanese dapurs (basically according to the Surakarta pakem as I was told), and you may find it, good luck!

And other opinions are welcome!

asomotif · 17th May 2011, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

...The pamor is oddly interrupted by the sogokans especially on the reverse side so I wonder whether the sogokans were added later and in this case the original dapur would be Sempaner, or Kanda Basuki if there is a sraweyan (classification from the EK).
Best regards
Jean

I see what you mean with the pamor being interrupted. They would better have stopped a little lower.
But does this mean the sogokans where added later ?

A. G. Maisey · 17th May 2011, 08:14 AM

I'm afraid that I'm a bit lost here.

I cannot understand what you mean by "interrupted pamor" Jean.

When the forging for the keris was made, there would have been pamor from one end to the other.

When the sogokan were cut, they would have been cut through the pamor.

If the core was not quite centered --- which is very frequently the case --- the sogokan could be cut to the same depth and pamor could occur in one, and not in the other. The only way to avoid this is by using the "crossed V" method of construction, but this is usually only found in very high quality keris.One would not expect to find it in a keris of this quality.

This blade has suffered from much erosion, due to age, because of this, some layers of pamor have been lost.

If I look at this blade I see pretty much what I would expect to see in a blade that is in this deteriorated condition. Old blades very seldom look like new blades, especially when they have remained in country of origin for a lengthy period.

Jean · 17th May 2011, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'm afraid that I'm a bit lost here.

I cannot understand what you mean by "interrupted pamor" Jean.
If I look at this blade I see pretty much what I would expect to see in a blade that is in this deteriorated condition. Old blades very seldom look like new blades, especially when they have remained in country of origin for a lengthy period.

Hello Alan and Willem,
I understand your difficulty to follow my point and again this is just my opinion from the pictures which are insufficient to make an accurate statement. I will try to be more explicit but you may still fully disagree with me!

When I look at the pictures of this blade, I feel something wrong aesthetically: for me such a repeating pamor (Bendo Sagodo?) should extend and be clearly visible to the base of the blade such as shown on my pictures, i.e I feel that it does not match with a dapur including sogokans.
Furthermore the sogokans do not seem to be well made, for instance on the top pictures their height is different and the janur does not look straight (and very thin on the back side). Of course this could be due to wear but this strengthens my impression that they were carved later.
Best regards
Jean

Sajen · 17th May 2011, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Alan and Willem,
I understand your difficulty to follow my point and again this is just my opinion from the pictures which are insufficient to make an accurate statement. I will try to be more explicit but you may still fully disagree with me!

When I look at the pictures of this blade, I feel something wrong aesthetically: for me such a repeating pamor (Bendo Sagodo?) should extend and be clearly visible to the base of the blade such as shown on my pictures, i.e I feel that it does not match with a dapur including sogokans.
Furthermore the sogokans do not seem to be well made, for instance on the top pictures their height is different and the janur does not look straight (and very thin on the back side). Of course this could be due to wear but this strengthens my impression that they were carved later.
Best regards
Jean

Hello Jean,

sorry, but I also don't think that the sogokan was added later since I agree in this point complete with Alan. That the two sogokan have a little bit different heigh you can found by many blades. You have a numerous collection byself, check your blades and I am nearly sure that you will find this fact by some blades, I have done it by my collection and found it as well.
That the janur is thin seems in my eyes the effect of the age and the wear. That it isn't straight at one point may be the result from a not careful handling of the blade in it's history.
And why should have someone added later the sogokan? I don't think that the work is worth the apprecation value.

I think that Danny have added a nice old blade to his collection with a eccentric dhapur which I can't name.

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 17th May 2011, 06:31 PM

BTW, have this keris a sarung?

Jean · 17th May 2011, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

sorry, but I also don't think that the sogokan was added later since I agree in this point complete with Alan.

Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,
Thank you for your opinion, and for convincing me please show us some specimens of Javanese blades with such type of repeating circular pamor motifs (Bendo Sagodo, Melati Rinonce, Kebu Tineret, etc) and with a dapur including sogokans. Personally I have none.
Best regards
Jean

Sajen · 18th May 2011, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
Thank you for your opinion, and for convincing me please show us some specimens of Javanese blades with such type of repeating circular pamor motifs (Bendo Sagodo, Melati Rinonce, Kebu Tineret, etc) and with a dapur including sogokans. Personally I have none.
Best regards
Jean

Hello Jean,

I only have observed about the different lenght from the sogokan without the reflection of the pamor. BTW write Danny that the pamor is wos wutah. A blade like you write I also don't have. But now I understand what you mean by interrupted pamor.

Best regards,

Detlef

rasdan · 17th May 2011, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The only way to avoid this is by using the "crossed V" method of construction, but this is usually only found in very high quality keris.One would not expect to find it in a keris of this quality.

G'day Alan,

Can you please explain what is the crossed V method and how can we look for the signs of this method of construction on a keris? Thank you.

Rasdan

Gustav · 17th May 2011, 09:33 PM

Actually if a keris has some condong leleh, it looks much better when sogokan and janur are bent, otherwise it would have this terribly stiff look.

danny1976 · 17th May 2011, 10:37 PM

everybody thanks for joining the discussion.

for myself i also still have the opinion that the keris is original and not a keris that they upgraded by cutting the sogokans.
I brought it last sunday to a meeting and showed it to some collectors that are well known here in Holland and some other country,s . The also have the opinion that the blade is original.

also maybe a step closer to the dapur , could it be Balu Balan ?
Someone told me that he thinks this is the dapur .

I.M.O the pamor is ''just'' Beras Wutha and not a kind of Bendo sagodo.

@ Sajen,

yes there is a waranka , but not original i found this blade in a east Jawa waranka but the fitting was terrible so i did look for a other waranka and it is now in a Waranka from Solo .

Gustav · 17th May 2011, 10:42 PM

Original wrongko can be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13482. In this ensemble the wrong part is the hilt.

13th May 2011, 11:12 AM	#1
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Danny, Just my opinion: The pamor is oddly interrupted by the sogokans especially on the reverse side so I wonder whether the sogokans were added later and in this case the original dapur would be Sempaner, or Kanda Basuki if there is a sraweyan (classification from the EK). Best regards Jean

13th May 2011, 07:04 PM	#2
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	Hello Jean, Thanks for your replay , but i don,t believe that the ad/cut the sogokans . On the photo it,s not so clear but when i have the blade in my hand you can see the pamor going true in the sogokans and also in the ganja . So the me it looks like a good blade and not a reshaped blade , and second this blade is in Holland for almost 80 years and i will believe that the also reshaped blades in that time but not so much as the do now days in Indonesia to make a blade more nice for the market . But of course i can be wrong regards, danny

13th May 2011, 08:49 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Hello Danny, Of course there is pamor under the sogokans but the repeating pamor motif looks "broken" at this level. If the blade is in its original condition, then according to the EK and the book "Dhapur" it is out of pakem. However you can look in the book "Keris - Daya Magic, etc...) from Ki Hudoyo Doyodipuro, which describes 380 types of straight Javanese dapurs (basically according to the Surakarta pakem as I was told), and you may find it, good luck! And other opinions are welcome!

17th May 2011, 08:14 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I'm afraid that I'm a bit lost here. I cannot understand what you mean by "interrupted pamor" Jean. When the forging for the keris was made, there would have been pamor from one end to the other. When the sogokan were cut, they would have been cut through the pamor. If the core was not quite centered --- which is very frequently the case --- the sogokan could be cut to the same depth and pamor could occur in one, and not in the other. The only way to avoid this is by using the "crossed V" method of construction, but this is usually only found in very high quality keris.One would not expect to find it in a keris of this quality. This blade has suffered from much erosion, due to age, because of this, some layers of pamor have been lost. If I look at this blade I see pretty much what I would expect to see in a blade that is in this deteriorated condition. Old blades very seldom look like new blades, especially when they have remained in country of origin for a lengthy period.

17th May 2011, 06:31 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,416	BTW, have this keris a sarung?

17th May 2011, 09:33 PM	#12
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Actually if a keris has some condong leleh, it looks much better when sogokan and janur are bent, otherwise it would have this terribly stiff look.

17th May 2011, 10:37 PM	#13
danny1976 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Holland Posts: 245	everybody thanks for joining the discussion. for myself i also still have the opinion that the keris is original and not a keris that they upgraded by cutting the sogokans. I brought it last sunday to a meeting and showed it to some collectors that are well known here in Holland and some other country,s . The also have the opinion that the blade is original. also maybe a step closer to the dapur , could it be Balu Balan ? Someone told me that he thinks this is the dapur . I.M.O the pamor is ''just'' Beras Wutha and not a kind of Bendo sagodo. @ Sajen, yes there is a waranka , but not original i found this blade in a east Jawa waranka but the fitting was terrible so i did look for a other waranka and it is now in a Waranka from Solo .

17th May 2011, 10:42 PM	#14
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Original wrongko can be seen here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13482. In this ensemble the wrong part is the hilt.