Samoan question

[fearn]

Vandoo,

I won't argue that gingers are Samoan (see attached pic for wild ginger), but the Helliconias came from South America and the Bird of Paradise from South Africa. The Pacific Islands have a lot of invasives and things that people have planted. The fact that you see it there now does not mean it was there 200 years ago.

Best,

F

Source: pic from http://www.terragalleria.com/parks/n....npsa3808.html

[ausjulius]

i think the wooden club shape came first and some enterprising capatilist noticed they looke dlike some forms of billhook and hack knife in europe purchased these and sold them as weapons further altering the club designs to more mimmic the new weapons form.. but surly the hooked club has been around in most polynesian cultures for a 1000snd years

[Billman]

Again it is probably just a coincidence, but one based on the same principles of what we would today call ergonomic design, i.e. form follows function...

There are similarly shaped billhooks found in England, Germany and Austria with a hook on the back to pull the next piece of wood towards the user. None of these were intended as weapons, but similar designs became incorporated into medieval pole arms in order to pull a rider from his horse...

African ceremonial weapons shaped like billhooks can also be found, and also ceremonial and status items such as the Mangbetu trombash, which to all intents and puposes looks and feels like a billhook - but everyone states they are weapons (throwing knives) or ceremonial/status/moneraty items, not tools (but I would be interested to know what tools they cut wood with, harvested corn, or made their huts with..) - sorry I digress...

I have noticed the similarities between the wooden Samoan and other cultures' clubs and billhooks - but I guess most European ethnologists were familiar with the billhook, and thus said they were 'billhook shaped' and not copied from a European billhook...

[Billman]

The Pitt Rivers Museum's explanation is however, very plausible - but curious that the form with a rearward facing back hook is not common in English billhooks, except for the London Block Hook and the Hertfordshire billhook.... And would these have been taken on board ship - or was the unbiquitous cutlass/machete more common???

What is really need is to confirm if this style of tool/weapon existed before the widespread introduction of trade goods, such as edged tools.... Beads and glass were always a much cheaper option....

Another possible trade area are the edged weapons of South East Asia - it is possible these were seen long before the white european colonists arrived... Some of these (e.g. from Indonesia and Malaysia) do also have hooks on the back....

And not forgetting the whalbone, wooden and stone clubs and cutting tools from other parts of Polynesia...

[Billman]

Chicken or egg??? Which came first.....

http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...ia/1928.59.21/ or http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...s/1899.62.718/

PRM state: " Since there both steel and wooden machetes and cutlasses elsewhere in western Polynesia during the 19th century, it has been suggested that there were not enough steel billhook blades to supply demand, so copies were carved out of wood. There is on display in the Museum a fine example of one such wooden nifo’oti."

The steel example is late 19th century, by Joseph Beal of Sheffield - curious it is not an English billhook shape... and I have never seen another similar blade, nor even a billhook by them. Was it made for export to Europe or as trade goods for use elsewhere in the world... It seems of exceptional quality for trade goods, and I would expect to have seen others if it was made as such.... Or was it fashioned by a local blacksmith from a cut down naval cutlass to resemble the local wooden weaponry.... (Assuming that after the introduction of colonial rule, the European's would have also introduced iron working techiques, and supplied bar stock as required)

Note the only J Beal I can trace was a cutler, not an edge tool maker - a cut-throat razor stamped J&J Beal can be found at: http://straightrazorplace.com/razors...lp-please.html - it is possible they made trade goods, but more likely that they made naval cutlasses or officers' swords (c.f. Wilkinson Sword do today)

Updated: they made Ashanti Slavers swords, a form of cutlass: http://faganarms.com/weapons_arms_ar...l/weapons.aspx so it is possible they made other weaponry... Update 2: Yes they did: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printt...p?t=7034&pp=40 as well as pocket knives... and Machetes: http://www.nzaaawgtn.org.nz/a08_12511300.asp