KATTARA QUESTION

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

After lots of questions to many different people and several craftsmen khanjar makers and sword makers the answer is ~ its for a wrist strap ! So when you are dancing with the weapon you dont lose it...I think that transposes to the old days since dancing is or was a form of martial art training for fighting.... That the wrist strap prevented total loss of the weapon should it be twisted out of your hand (A common trick with the combination of Terrs shield and Kattara) The tang and pommel are one piece of metal so its not to assist screwing on the pommel and its nothing to do with the devlish nature of Iron nor in fact is it meant to dangle beads from though I can see how that could be used...Phew!!

Salaams Ibrahiim, That DOES answer the original question thankyou. Now for the next challenge......a pic of a Kattara WITH the wrist strap....................

[archer]

I was going to venture a guess that Since these pommels are of different sizes as are the holes. Could they simply be a fine tuning of the swords balance?

I just purchased one(Omani?) this evening that has a round brass pommel The seller says hilt has original cloth binding. The scabbard is a basket case. Question is what about the round and brass pommel? Thanks, Steve
P.s. Its coming from UK, so it will be awhile.

[kahnjar1]

Saw this but not sure that it is in fact Omani. Hilt looks more african to me. Comments from others???????????????

[Iain]

That's a Manding/Mandingo sword - not a kattara. Personally I'm not convinced there's much of a link between the two types, other than using similar trade blades and local copies. The hilt type is simple enough to occur without influence.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

That's a Manding/Mandingo sword - not a kattara. Personally I'm not convinced there's much of a link between the two types, other than using similar trade blades and local copies. The hilt type is simple enough to occur without influence.

Its Mandingo for sure. Its not Omani but as for the influence there isnt enough evidence to not link it to the Kattara design. Personally I think it is very influencial~ my arguement based on Zanzibar which was seized by Oman in 1632 (2 years after they threw the Portuguese out of Oman) being a conduit for weapons from and for Africa the Yemen and Oman etc. My point being that the Omani Kattara didn't exist until that time(or did it?) and the Omani Sword was a short stiff blade with a spiked Islamic Dome shaped Hilt with turned down quillons that I argue could date back to the 8th Century A.D. when Oman adopted Ibathi Islam.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Its Mandingo for sure. Its not Omani but as for the influence there isnt enough evidence to not link it to the Kattara design. Personally I think it is very influencial~ my arguement based on Zanzibar which was seized by Oman in 1632 (2 years after they threw the Portuguese out of Oman) being a conduit for weapons from and for Africa the Yemen and Oman etc. My point being that the Omani Kattara didn't exist until that time(or did it?) and the Omani Sword was a short stiff blade with a spiked Islamic Dome shaped Hilt with turned down quillons that I argue could date back to the 8th Century A.D. when Oman adopted Ibathi Islam.

Hi Ibrahiim,

My original post was probably worded a little stronger than I intended and I meant my point to be a little more open ended. I don't specialize in either kattara or Manding weaponry so I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to seriously argue it either way. But just for the sake of discussion... There is plenty of documentation of Arab traders, settlements even within the larger Sahel cities of Arab merchants so all the pieces are there for it to be Omani influence. My issue is that in these regions literally everyone was using some variant of these trade blades, kaskara, takouba etc. This exact blade style was manufactured heavily in the Hausa states much closer to the Manding areas. The style of hilt on kattara is pretty simple and the Manding swords are a bit different in the pommel terminus, a element which shows up on other Manding weapons with slightly different hilt variations such as this example:http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2462

I've also personally never seen a wire covered hilt on a Manding sword which I thought was pretty distinctive of Omani katarra (please do correct that assumption if I'm wrong!) I'm not saying there isn't influence, just that personally I'm undecided as the form is simple enough in my opinion to not necessarily need influence to explain it. It is after all just a grip with a somewhat decorative terminal. I have a tendency to wonder if we, generally speaking, aren't too quick to try and connect a lot of forms which could just as easily be explained by local innovation. Of course this is somewhat playing the other side for the sake of argument. :-)

Interesting that you mention the point that the style could of transmitted from the mainland to Zanzibar and then Oman - that would be opposite direction I'd expect. The Manding do seem to have picked bits and pieces from all over the places - I've got a takouba that's Manding as well. Either way an interesting topic to be sure.

Not wanting to take this thread offtopic I'll PM you with a few questions about the wide blade Omani form as this situation mirrors two takouba types.

Best regards,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

My original post was probably worded a little stronger than I intended and I meant my point to be a little more open ended. I don't specialize in either kattara or Manding weaponry so I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to seriously argue it either way. But just for the sake of discussion... There is plenty of documentation of Arab traders, settlements even within the larger Sahel cities of Arab merchants so all the pieces are there for it to be Omani influence. My issue is that in these regions literally everyone was using some variant of these trade blades, kaskara, takouba etc. This exact blade style was manufactured heavily in the Hausa states much closer to the Manding areas. The style of hilt on kattara is pretty simple and the Manding swords are a bit different in the pommel terminus, a element which shows up on other Manding weapons with slightly different hilt variations such as this example:http://oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=2462

I've also personally never seen a wire covered hilt on a Manding sword which I thought was pretty distinctive of Omani katarra (please do correct that assumption if I'm wrong!) I'm not saying there isn't influence, just that personally I'm undecided as the form is simple enough in my opinion to not necessarily need influence to explain it. It is after all just a grip with a somewhat decorative terminal. I have a tendency to wonder if we, generally speaking, aren't too quick to try and connect a lot of forms which could just as easily be explained by local innovation. Of course this is somewhat playing the other side for the sake of argument. :-)

Interesting that you mention the point that the style could of transmitted from the mainland to Zanzibar and then Oman - that would be opposite direction I'd expect. The Manding do seem to have picked bits and pieces from all over the places - I've got a takouba that's Manding as well. Either way an interesting topic to be sure.

Not wanting to take this thread offtopic I'll PM you with a few questions about the wide blade Omani form as this situation mirrors two takouba types.

Best regards,

Iain

I quite agree. I think there is a lot more research to do on both the Kattara and the earlier Omani sword. Africa became awash with German blades somewhat clouding the issue. Ive seen what appear to be european blades on both the main Omani swords short and long and watered steel wootz from where no one is certain. For me these two questions are hugely important
1. Where did the Omani Short Battle Sword originate and when did it arrive on the scene in Oman?
2. From where did the Omani Kattara originate and when?
My hypothesis on the first question seems to defy gravity somewhat since I suspect the "Short" is 8th century Omani and unrelated to either Persian or Spanish muslim dynasties(Nasrid).
In considering the second question African influence is raising flags all over the answer. Logically OMAN having obtained the big foothold in Zanzibar in 1632 seems like a reasonable timeframe for the influence to begin.

Im getting a message but theres some sort of blocker operating on the private mail!!! will try to clear it... By the way excellent reply and I think it is very much ok and on topic ... I hope!!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by archer

I was going to venture a guess that Since these pommels are of different sizes as are the holes. Could they simply be a fine tuning of the swords balance?

I just purchased one(Omani?) this evening that has a round brass pommel The seller says hilt has original cloth binding. The scabbard is a basket case. Question is what about the round and brass pommel? Thanks, Steve
P.s. Its coming from UK, so it will be awhile.

ref. fine tuning; Nice idea.. I already thought about that but its a no. There would certainly be some written material to back up a weights and measurement concept like that.... I wish it was that easy. In my opinion we are probably right on the edge of having lost the absolute truth of this conundrum though the general consensus is that it is a hole for a wrist strap... even amongst the old sword makers they think it was for the sword wrist strap but... their thought is that it is to stop it falling from the hand whilst dancing... It is an interesting choice of words. Not fighting~ dancing. This means that in their life time it is the dancing which takes precedence... whilst I would wager the same question asked say 80 or 150 years ago the answer would be to stop the sword falling whilst fighting. The link is... that dancing was a form of exercise, warm up, martial drill if you like before going into battle therefor we in our wisdom can do a bit of logical manouvre yes?... So its a wrist strap. Insofar as I can tell it seems to have fallen into disuse. Now I am a great believer in the original Omani Short Battlesword as being completely unique to Oman and as a matter of interest it does have a wrist strap hole at the top of the handle the lower two being for rivets to hold the tang/hilt assembly together and it is not without possibility that a hole in the pommel on the Omani Kattara sprang from that idea though... I have no proof !